What a shame. I hope Tim Tielman and the rest of you never leave Buffalo, you should be required to stay here until you die, condemned to live in the desolate wasteland of post-industry that you worked so hard to create.
Sinking fast - I don't agree with the first half of your post, but I love this quote.
JoelAK: Well said. Exactly.
Perry: SO right (again).
TheNextMayor: Your Olmsted remark is true and good, but irrelevant when talking about the specific waterfront land in this issue.
BenMcD: If you've been to a Bass Pro then you know it has clothes very appropriate for all four Buffalo seasons, ;plus styles same as LLBean. Besides our proximity and use of the lake has not been exploited and should be. Selling boats and encouraging tie-ups and a busy harbor/marina creates waterside hospitality and entertainment ventures.
Steve: Comparing Auburn to Buffalo is like comparing Niagara Falls to Buffalo. We're down, but we're not down like that! :)
SerenityNow: All anyone on this blog is doing is "inferring." Any masterplan--especially the 'original' one so lovingly cited by the hard core preservationists is just a guideline, a vision--not a legal document. The pre-development agreement is the same. Until the Draft Designs are looked at we won't know what is going where, if retail is totally street-facing and/or at corners, 'where doors will be', etc. All that design work is still to come. There is a Final Design review and comment period too. If everyone would bother to look at the Timetable in the PDF, it's all there. What we all need to do, preservationists included, is have an opportunity to be heard through a public forum sponsored by Quinn and crew, to accept public comment, go off and negotiate, and conduct reasonable give-and-take---AND GET DEVELOPMENT DONE. Filing lawsuits is not the answer and only hurts all other future developments that could/will come on the waterfront and nearby.
scooter: "Thanks" for your "thanks" Simpatico.
Why all the hand wringing over parking ramps? A) they're necessary B) they aren't on the water and C) there will be either retail on the ramps' ground floor, or a ring of development on three sides. Hardly a bad thing.
See: http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/wgrz/news/CanalSideparkingplan.jpg
This'll all be nice when we don't have people in the city to shop at this retail anyway. This entire scheme is predicated on people coming down and spending money at retail centers to resurrect the city's economic climate. Unfortunitly even in cities such as Philly that have tourism and downtown retail, population continues to fall. Our politicians are great at these "silver bullet" projects than reducing patronage, lowering taxes and encouraging incoming producing businesses, while retail for the most part creates no new revenue for the community.
Also, so when did having contrarian opinions make a person an asshat, hippie or other derogatory name? There has been no waterfront redevelopment or economic growth because Buffalo is an old industrial city, with polluted waterways, inept politicians, high taxes and no economic stimulus. For those so anti-hippi...why hasn't business taken care of the waterfront. Isn't it a little hippie for you to encourage a PUBLIC entity to facilitate the development with PUBLIC funding?
SerenityNow,
If you look at the parking plan, it is obvious, even at this very early stage, that parking is nested behind the street-facing elements of retail and other activities. See: http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/wgrz/news/CanalSideparkingplan.jpg
Also see this rendering that clearly indicates “Mixed Use” and “retail” etc. within each parking area: I doubt retail is going to be on the top floor, so let’s safely assume it will be on the ground floor. http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/wgrz/news/CanalSideSitePlan.pdf
Within the WGRZ audio/video announcement we can see and hear Joel Giambra ask for--and receive--approval from Charles Rosenow, ECHDC chairman, to have a 'preservation' expert sit on the Architectural Review Committee (ARC). The charge of the committee is to ensure the entire project district retains the look and feel of the 1880s. Obviously that cannot be 100 percent replicated, so we should assume the "flavor" of the same period will be injected as needed. Either way, we should look to the ARC to protect the authenticity of the district. This is not a plan of one group at the expense of another—it is a plan for all. The concerns of well-intentioned preservationists should be heard and negotiated in as practical. Obstructionists and untenable positions should not be allowed--so back away from the table.
The same ARC must see and approve all Bass Pro, Benderson (and ECHDC) designs, schematics. See the pre-Development Agreement PDF page 6, point 3; and page 8, point 7.
The 'Project Site' specifically states that developments on the Central Wharf site must 'seek to recreate' the 1880s designs, so the Wharf is protected against parking intrusions. PDF page 6, point 1
As a further example of what the intent is, the pre-Dev. Agr., page 9, point "c", states that Benderson's developments on the Aud block integrate fully with the EDHDC parking structure.
I hope the above eases your (others) big concerns about this not-yet-even-fully designed project. All the fine details are yet to come. We should give the designers an opportunity to do their work before we criticize thin air. At the least, we should all expect some public sessions to allow citizens’ feedback. It would also be good for Quinn and crew to come out now and do a better PR job selling the project so incorrect and distorted information doesn’t permeate our lives.
Annoying, sure, end of the line for this development? I doubt it. They have so much political weight behind this, it is going to happen either way with or without public consent.
Today's story is a classic Buffalo News two-step...Esmonde states his case in his column and then his newsroom buddies come in behind with an "objective" news story, thereby legitimizing the opposition. Who are these anonymous "business leaders" and is it possible they may have a vested interest in opposing the plan? How on earth can the News defend the use of anonymous sources to bolster its claim that there is significant opposition? Anyone unwilling to state their views publicly should not be taken seriously unless, of course, their opinions mirror those of The News. And Mark Sommer's pejorative and typical reference to Bass Pro as a "tackle and hunting store" would be like saying Home Depot is a hardware and paint shop. The elected officials who were part of the planning process for this project and who all had nothing but glowing comments about it last week now need to stand tall and provide leadership and drown out The News and the anonymous "business leaders."
I wonder how many of these people from the business community that are opposed to this project happen to be developers that are not involved in the project, hmmm...
Other than that I can't have any confidence in Tim Tielman's position on the issue. I think it's a much more practical use of his resources to try and save something that still stands rather than to obstruct development on vacant land.
I could see the point if there were something on this site to actually preserve other than foundations. This entire project is a reconstruction, including the re-watering of the terminus. I fail to see the logic in preserving a former commercial site by making it a public park.
How is that historically accurate? Isn't it more respectful of the sites history to reuse it as a commercial site?
Ken- When I say "you just don't get it" I am say that placemaking and history telling is more than a 120,000 sf big box retailer that looks like an old building. It certainly is not a bunch of parking garages. If you can tell me of one successful urban waterfront that has that number of parking spaces as close as they are proposing for this one than maybe I "don't get it".
And just so you know Ken, I am an urban planner and I know how to listen the the publics wishes. I am also all for successful compromises- yes compromises. I would never say its may way or the highway.
This site is the reason for Buffalo's existance. We need to be respectful and help recreate what made Buffalo one of the most successful cities in its earlier years. With political will this will get done. Remember this, the site was almost filled in thats to our leaders.
Who cares what Scot Fisher says or thinks? What has he ever done to improve Buffalo other than to renovate a church and do a good business deal for himself and his company? What a self-important blowhard! But the Buffalo News has lionized him and his boss to the point where we're supposed to care what they think. I, for one, couldn't care less what Scot Fisher thinks about the waterfront or anything else. This whole discussion borders on the unbelievable. Absolutely nothing has happened on the waterfront for 100 years and finally we have a plan, the players and the money and out of the sewer come the obstructionists and their Alice-in-Wonderland versions of what the waterfront should look like. Why don't we be true to history and recreate what was really there: whorehouses and ginmills!
Guidelines prohibit parking ramps and “large-scale big box retail spaces that discourage street level activity and interaction.” ~ The Snooze
Since this is an offically designated redevelopment area, it must have a master plan for funding, and if the development doesn't fit into each parcel's stated use, it most likely will have to be amended.
I think its sad that when we have this opportunity for a holistic approach to developing the waterfront, we instead choose three parking ramps and a 120,000sf store, its like 1960s redevelopment but with an historic skin on the building. I can't wait to see if the design board actually forces Bass Pro to use Masonry construction as the MP instructs.
Not to drag this off-topic, but I can think of plenty of lawsuits that never happened but should have. For example:
+ Suit to halt UB's expansion in Amherst and redirect it to the waterfront + Suit to halt the conversion of Humboldt Parkway into an expressway + Suit to halt the demolition of the Larkin Building + Suit to punish the parties who enabled the demolition of the Harbor Inn + Suit to force the City to maintain its properties to the same standards that residents have to adhere to
Need I go on?
Scot Fisher should just STFU! We all know that he believes that boarding up and ruining properties via neglect constitutes development in his book. Just look at the spectacular job that he is doing on renovating his properties on Genesee St and Main St. He is a good example of what not to do with a property. Then again, his connections with the city government ensure that he isn't cited for anything major and that he is allowed to perpetuate the architectural abuse of his properties. Someone would need to die in one of his buildings before the city will act on the flagrant building code violations.
Scot, if you read this, keep your nose out of the waterfront until you clean up your own mess!
platt4
Thanks for pointing out what so many need to read and understand.
If everyone would take the time to learn the facts then all this disinformation would (should) evaporate. The parking garages will include ground level retail spaces so interaction and interest from sidewalk to inside and vice versa is encouraged.
Any urban planner / architect worth a dime can design a bright and interesting parking ramp that doesn't even look like a ramp--and BRO has posted same in the past. So give up the opposition to ramps. We want non-City residents and out-of-towners to come down to Canal Side, and it doesn't make sense for most to get out of their cars to jump on Metro, etc. Parking is needed and is required just as it is provided at Baltimore's Inner Harbor. See: http://baltimore.about.com/od/transportation/ht/howtopark.htm
Oh, and 'asshat' Timmy T, don't fail to notice all those buildings so close to the water. Gee, I see the horror destined for Buffalo if we allow the same at Canal Side: all those jobs and activity and excitement...it's so counter-productive to maintaining our Western Terminus ("terminal" looking?) waterfront.
This effort to recreate history was a very very bad idea since day one. Thoughtfully designed modern buildings that respect the few actual historic elements on the site is a very good idea. It seems like some folks have an image in their mind and they will not be satisfied until they realize that image on the waterfront. The problem is that the image cannot be recreated--its only a memory. That time has passed and all you can get if you still want to recreate history will be a depressing compromise of an experience. We should embrace the things that most modern urban dwellers want and need on their waterfront. We want things like culture, entertainment, shopping, public space, apartments and people. Many people don't really want faux-Buffalo, plaques or reenactments. Give us our shopping and our entertainment experience and do it well and do it soon.
no fan of lawyers or "preservationists" but don't blame them for this one. is it a good thing that lawyers and "preservationists" did not obstruct the building of the HSBC building, the convention center, or the subway? all i know is that a store is a store; how many stand alone large stores stay open for 20 years? why are we paying them to open if it's such a good idea? if they close in 10 years that's $25 M for 10 years? do the people who make up the waterfront develoment group (i/e. gioia & the others) really intend to hang out at the new waterfront and shop at Bass Pro? why should i trust or believe them when they are of the same ilk as those responsible for recent bone-head moves: i.e., the new hockey arena squeezed into a corner of downtown or the proposed location for the "new" convention center? Remember, the "development" experts not too long ago (in the early 80's) said that no one would go to a public park on the waterfront and that private housing (rivermist, etc.) and Shangai Reds would be the best thing. were they right?
Ya Ken, it's too bad the preservationist were successful in stopping the filling in of the original terminus of the canal as well... maybe we could have had a great mall on the water.
I would agree with everyone who says something has got to happen on the waterfront but if you are just willing to allow it to be developed like a suburban site in an urban setting... well you just don't get it. What we don't need is an outdoor shopping mall. It has got to tell our story. That is what the public asked for.
Why is it so hard for our own public officials to understand this? It's too bad that anyone who does "get it" is an obstructionist.
From a purley economic standpoint.... A well thoughtout authentic place will always draw people. That's what people go to Europe folks. They are headed there for Disney Paris.
Oh ya, Happy Easter!
As I've stated before...any historical photos I've seen of the waterfront, the buildings are right on the water's edge. I don't recall seeing any public green space that was there in the 1800's. If the people of Buffalo want waterfront green space (something I utilize quite a bit) go to nearby LaSalle Park or use the nice bike paths/park space along Rt. 5.
Tim Tielman is a piece of garbage. Also, I will never spend another cent on anything Righteous Babe after seeing Scot Fisher so vehemently state that this project is an insult to the people. Scot Fisher- Buffalo's newest obstructionist idiot, and just when I thought that his company was going to be an actual asset to the city.
Hey West Coast, Buffalo has a lawsuit "tradition"? I can think of only five in the past few years.
Peace Bridge: stopped an unattractive twin span and disastrous plaza proposal and forced an EIS as the law requires, permitting the public to participate in the planning process.
Canal District: forced a revised EIS that takes into account the district's status as a federally-protected cultural landscape and newly discovered archaeological remains, saved the Erie Canal terminus, established a NEPA-required public process that gave the community a visionary consensus plan for Erie Canal Harbor.
Main/Virginia: Revoked an unnecessary emergency demolition permit on a fire-damaged historic building, salvaged the economic opportunity now already captured to redevelop the block as a mixed-use/residential development.
Casino: still ongoing, may prevent the construction of an Indian-owned casino in Buffalo.
Burchfield Penney: effort to require a SEQR review that would have allowed the public to participate in planning on the National Landmark Richardson and Olmsted collaboration on Forest Avenue, suit dismissed
If only public advocates could have sued under NEPA when the university expansion was being geared to Amherst instead of downtown, or highways were being slapped across our waterfront and through our parks, or urban renewal was eviscerating large portions of our downtown and neighborhoods.
And really, West Coast, there aren't any lawsuits in Sacramento?
tjc...there are no compromises from the preservationist/obstructionist perspective. It is their way or nothing. This is nothing more than a powerplay from people who have too much free time on their hands.
It was a lawsuit that stopped the filling in of the original canal terminus in the first place. Sorry folks, I must agree with the people looking to come up with a compromise on the use of this extermely import historic site.
Parking garages do not cut it for vitality- move them further away. I am not opposed to having the Bass Pro but it must fit into the historic plan for the site.
atypical- I wouldn't want you coming back to Buffalo either- short sighted. Oh look its a silver bullet (ya those work out so well).
We have a tremendous opportunity and again our public officials are letting down the Buffalo-Niagara Region as well as telling our story to the rest of the world.
I hope some great compromises can be forged so this can still move forward in a timely fashion- it just takes vision and a love of our own history. There is only one Buffalo and guess what.....it has a great history to share with the world.
What a shame. We finally have movement and some real dollars going into area...the missing piece of the puzzle....finally!! Then the lawsuits..almost reckless considering the history of investment in our waterfront...did you ever think of solving the problem as opposed to outright challenge. Rather than draw the line in the sand...maybe be happy we have something proposed for area and work with it??
Ya Emjay- that sorry excuse for a church they salvaged- how dare he say anything against this project. They could have built a cinderblock building that would have worked much better for Righteous Babe Records!!!
Believe it or not, "The Church" is a huge asset to Buffalo. But what does he know- building 4 parking garages within a block of the historic waterfront is brilliant. How dare we ask people to walk a bit further for a well-thought-out historically sensitive waterfront. It's really too bad they just didn't fill in that ditch "canal" in the first place. Damn preservationists...they screw up everything.
It is ashame that once again, a lawsuit by the conservation terrorist who is as well a self proclaimed architectural and urban planning expert, is playing hostage to progress on Buffalo's waterfront. So the open space has been shifted towards the commercial slip. Open space in and of itself is not the solution to creating a viable and active urban environment. There has to be the retail, museum, and mixed use venues to draw people. This has been studied for years. It was clear we were going after a Bass Pro for years, now finally an agreement has been achieved and we have to listen to ones personal opinion who I think would rather see no progress at all. Come on obstructionist! Give it up already!
I'd LOVE to see some excitement happening Downtown. Noone will come downtown for a boring PARK or mass of PARKING RAMPS.....The Bass Pro Store design looks fine to me. It's the massive Parking Ramps surrounding it that will take away any chance for street life. Are these guys for real saying that these parking structures are needed so close to revitalize this area? Hmmmm, obvisiously these guys have NEVER Been to Chicago, NYC, Toronto or even CLEVELAND to see it takes EXCITEMENT to build an area NOT Parking Ramps. If you build enough attractions and retail/restaurants on the waterfront, PEOPLE WILL COME... and guess what, if they can't find an upfront parking space, they WILL Park farther into the heart of downtown and WALK to the destination....That is good urban planning. Maby Quinn and his boys should stay out of urban development and stick with something else.... What happend to the plan of hotels, lofts, office mix with first floor activity for these blocks? That was a much better idea than massive parking ramps, and more logical.
Mister Chips - Way to Monday Morning Quarterback.. if you were the least bit informed you would know that UB moved to Amherst because the people of Buffalo didn't want it in the city. Same with the Kennsington Expressway, the people believed that it would bring business and people downtown, that it would stop the flight from the urban core; and it did for awhile. Some businesses remained in downtown because of the 33, without it, they would have left the city a long time ago.
Keep filing your frivolous lawsuits, it keeps people like me employed!
This is the first nail in the coffin for the waterfront. It will be a perpetual dirt construction site, the chain link fences are so attractive along the water! Screw Tim Tielman and all the other lawsuit filing asshats. You sound like a bunch of spoiled kids who throw tantrums when you don't get your way. Only you take your frivolous lawsuits to the courts instead of taking your ball and going home. What a shame. I hope Tim Tielman and the rest of you never leave Buffalo, you should be required to stay here until you die, condemned to live in the desolate wasteland of post-industry that you worked so hard to create.
I'm so sick of hippies. Dick Lippes and Scot Fisher need to move to Cuba. http://www.sabreslinks.com/2007/04/hippies-are-douchebags-too-dick-lippes.html
I was very disappointed to read this in the Buffalo News this morning. From a historical perspective, we have the re-watered slip, the foundations from past buildings, new buildings designed to fit in with eras past and plans for an Erie Canal museum. How much of a recreation do you need? The majority of the elements in the "master plan" were unfunded and ended up being replaced by green space. So you are suing because the green space is being used for something more feasible?
My enthusiasm for waterfront development rises every time I hear Brian Higgins speak, but I throw my hands up in the air and wave the white flag when I read an article like this.
To those who continue to stand in the way of waterfront development because it's "not what you want", I hope you continue to enjoy the waterfront as it is today because that is what you will be looking at 20 years from now. I hope that is something you can be proud of and tell your grandchildren about.
I really wish the people behind the lawsuits would get a life to the point where they wouldn't the time to pursue such nonsense as this.
I hope you are happy.
"Ken" with no last name is anonymously critical of the Buffalo News for quoting anonymous business people.
Even writes. "This isn't watergate and deep throat. If you don't want your identity revealed then you shouldn't be quoted in the article."
Am I the only one here who recognizes the hypocrisy of all these anonymous posters?
Is "Ken" real "deep throat"?
"We could use a few more Tim Tielmans." Yeah about as much as a few more Super Bowl losses. No wonder we have lost 2.7% of our population since 2000.
You know what's F-ed up about D-B's like Tielmans and Dick Lippes? They keep Buffalo looking like a perpetual 'before' picture. You know it's bad when North Korea is nicer than the American city you live in.
If we DID complete this transformation and did bring LOTS of people back downtown. Are we going to see SECURITY????? I am about to transfer my job out to the burbs after working downtown for 6 months...Reason? I DON'T FEEL SAFE DOWNTOWN IN THE DAYTIME....Why? NO COPS....Why do I have to walk down shabby Main Street, be harrased by bums and walk around/walk across the street to avoid rowdy kids and CRAZY PEOPLE screaming at themselfs??? and I NEVER SEE OFFICERS AROUND and NOW you have more SHADY people hanging out at the new Parole Office (former Courtyard Mall)....I am from Brooklyn, BUT Downtown Buffalo reminds me of NYC during the 1980'S Before Rudy CLEANED IT UP, Back when NYC was the most dangerous city in the country. (Now the Safest Big City)...I mean, I feel like I'm in a freakin' TWILIGHT ZONE when ever I'm downtown, A TIME-WARP (is it the 1980's or early 1990's?) WHERE ARE THE NORMAL PEOPLE???? Seems the only life you see there now are FREAKS, BUMS and CRAZY'S.
Bass Pro could be the gateway to recreation on the Buffalo River and Lake Erie and it has great potential to help make the redevelopment of the waterfront a real means for connecting commerce to the water in a way that people can engage and participate in. Through fishing excusions, educational classes, maps and charts of the harbor on view and available, public boat moorings, kayak rentals, summer water taxi service, tables for cleaning fish, aquarium displays of fish species in local water, information on the state and local programs for cleaning the river and volunteer opportunities available, and any and all other possible water based means for making Bass Pro a development that truelly speaks to the local resources at hand would make this a huge win for the city.
With that said however, Bass Pro can not be a wall to the water. Even if it has multiple entrances, it needs a multitude of progam occuing along the rivers edge to make it a success for the city. Specifically there should be restaurant or better - two or three - facing the water that povides outdoor seating on the wharf deck and also permits continuous public access along the edge. Why not use the ground floor for other retailers, restaurants and most of bass pro can be on the upper levels. There should be a means for getting from the Prime Slip and other streets to the water without feeling like you have to walk through a store. The facade of the building should be varied and of very high quality materials and design.
There is alot that Bass Pro has to prove yet and the lawsuits seem to me a precautionary step that will prevent the constrution of an urban planning mistake on scale with the erie basin marina disaster. Lets hope bass pro and larry quinn really understand what the site needs and how real waterfronts function and can quiet all the naysayers with a great waterfront proposal- that they have yet to describe.
Public advocacy lawsuits are often the only tool the average Jane and average Joe have in shaping projects like the Erie Canal Harbor. What's wrong with a tool that gave the citizens of Buffalo a rewatered Commercial Slip, a replica bowstring bridge, and a recreated Canal District street network? That same "lawsuit" delayed Benderson Blunder #1 in the late 1990s (which would have destroyed historic streets and the terminus of the Erie Canal) and opened a federally-mandated NEPA process and public review period that gave us an internationally award-winning Erie Canal Harbor Master Plan, which Larry Quinn is now wantonly discarding.
There would be no delays, no lawsuits, no community rancor if plutocrats like Larry Quinn weren't attempting to undo a community consensus vision that took ten years of public hearings and millions of state dollars to implement. We were about to move forward on the next stages of that plan before His Incompetence decided how brilliant it would be to have his big box store built on one of the most historic sites in the city. If a delay occurs, it's all on Larry Quinn.
Urbanbody, thanks for explaining your interpretation but for the most part it's your subejctive interpretation. Not saying it's not a reasonable inferences, but not clear cut either.
Again, in the pdf image to whch you link, note that the site "A" is not labebled "mixed use" and so for that one if I had to guess now I would guess it's a plain parking ramp on the ground floor which would be a lousy decision if that's what happens.
About the others which are labeled "mixed use", I agree probably it won't mean retail or residential on the top floor (although who knows re. residential?), but it could also mean that the designers are free to allocate a good deal of the first floor to parking even in those and just put some retail at one corner or something.
What I'd like to see is a simple sentence, similar to the one you wrote in your previous comment (you wrote: "there will be either retail on the ramps' ground floor, or a ring of development on three sides"), added to the official plan.
I don't think that'd be micro-managing the design at all, simply giving important high level guidance to the designers. The nut cases will never be satisfied, but at least some explicit clarification about this would yank away one of their rallying cries and remove some uncertainty for others who are otherwise open minded about this.
tjc...you prove my point when you say "well you just don't get it" aka I know what should be done with the waterfront and you don't. Just because Benderson is primarily a suburban developer does not mean that they can't develop these parcels in a way that would make everyone happy, but feel free to continue with "suburban site in a urban setting" drivel.
Good luck with the lawsuit.
Screw TIME TIELMAN AND SCOT FISHER!!! What the hell do they do besides STOP EVERYTHING!!!!! And isn't Scot Fisther the slum lord who owns a bunch of Buildings on Genesee @ Oak St.? HE DESERVES A HEFTY FINE/JAIL TIME for allowing his property to look like SHIT.
If someone wants to jump to Scot Fisher's defense because of "the Church", then go ahead, but that wasn't his idea and it wasn't his funding. The project was finished late and well over budget. Sorry Scot, you failed again.
Larry Quinn said many times that he did not "want to negotiate this deal in public". What does he expect? Of course there will be a law suit. We spent years working on a plan that was developed as part of a very open and public process. Then it's reworked behind closed doors. We shouldn't stand for this.
Tim Tielman has done great things for this city. Those of you that belittle him show your own ignorance about cities and successful enconomic development. We could use a few more Tim Tielmans.
Not moving back because of stuff like this? That's nonsense.
OMG---I've been in denial for 33 years. The true reason downtown Buffalo is a dump is the development. CHRISH is right, until we stop building and start suing, Buffalo will remain a dump. Can I sue CHRISH? How about uber-hippies like Dick Lippes? I'm gonna sue the hippies! Regardless...
I can't wait to visit the Buffalo Waterfront in 25 years. It will make for a nice vaction for me and my (eventual at this rate) San Diego based family. I figure by then, they will enjoy the hippie-theme park complete with brown spaces and grain elevators.
"It's been 25 years since I've been to Buffalo---I really love what you have done with the waterfront" Bette Midler 2005
http://www.sabreslinks.com/2007/04/hippies-are-douchebags-too-dick-lippes.html
Speaking of Bass Pro and historic sites...
The Railyards Specific Plan (Plan) provides for the development a new mixed use district in the heart of Sacramento. The 238 acres site is located just north of the Sacramento's central business district and east of the Sacramento River. It is recognized as the largest urban infill site in this region and presents Sacramento with a significant opportunity to accommodate future growth utilizing sustainable and smart growth principles. The site is historically significant in that it was the western terminus of the 1869 Transcontinental Railroad and was the largest fabrication and maintenance facility west of the Mississippi.
This is from the city of Sacramento's website and Bass Pro signed a letter of intent to be the first anchor tennant in this development. C'mon people, our story and our place in history can be told with Bass Pro in the mix. And let's be real, if a 100% historic canal development would be a boon to tourism and economic development then Lockport would be all the rage and they have more canal experiences to offer even if we restored everything.
Chrish - A public outcry and lawsuit ensure that UB would be built in Amherst instead of expanded into the city. Your over-glorified lawsuits are a way for the minority to bully the silent majority. You have a dream of what you want in Buffalo, and that dream consists of reliving 1910 all over again. I would love to know the cities and towns that you have planned, and your overall vision for this "Great City". It sounds to me like you are a frustrated asshat who chose a profession that isn't suited for you.
Sad to see a New York authority throw away so much of the original masterplan (which is actually being implemented as we speak) and to reopen up what was a contentious but ultimately successful EIS process. Major mistake.
Plans on public projects that are developed in private and then shown to the community to be rubber stamped will always face opposition. This isn't rocket science yet decision makers seem to continue making the same mistakes.
A good example of doing it "right" is the Olmsted Conservancy's 20 year masterplan. They are following a successful process used by the Central Park Conservancy in NYC. The plan is likely to be implemented when finished because it will have included the public from the beginning to the end.
This is ridiculous. Hopefully a judge w/ a brain gets this case and throws that crap out the window. There will never be a plan that everyone likes, lets all compromise and build something! The proposed plan has a store coming that attracts tons of people and in addition it has history mixed in with it. That’s a crap load better than barren land and a building that’s been empty for 11 years.
And to reiterate what someone said on another article (buffalofalling?) lets start gutting the aud and selling the memorabilia inside. I’d definitely pay $100 for a seat and I’m sure many people would be willing to pay a lot more. That could raise a good chunk of change for a start.
Keller, they're at the foot of Main Street, recently completed. The Commercial Slip, the historic terminus of the Erie Canal, was unearthed, restored and rewatered. It is where Governor DeWitt Clinton ceremoniously poured a bucket of Atlantic Ocean water into Lake Erie to christen the opening of the Erie Canal. In the previous plan, it would have been destroyed and a "fake" canal constructed nearby to signify that, once upon a time, there was a historic canal somewhere nearby.
The replica bowstring bridge across the Commercial Slip was recently put in place, nearly exact in dimensions and construction type as the bridge that crossed the Commercial Slip from Prime Street over a hundred years ago.
The historic Commercial, Prime, Lloyd and Hanover streets will be reconstructed in their original cobblestone later this year, resurrecting the street network of the world renowned Canal District of the old Buffalo harbor.
I'm no hippie, just an urban planner with a penchant for this great city.
"It is where Governor DeWitt Clinton ceremoniously poured a bucket of Atlantic Ocean water into Lake Erie to christen the opening of the Erie Canal."
I bet dozens of people worldwide will be impressed with this info.
"The replica bowstring bridge across the Commercial Slip was recently put in place, nearly exact in dimensions and construction type as the bridge that crossed the Commercial Slip from Prime Street over a hundred years ago."
Who can gauge the economic impact of this gem? I can---0.00 Butarski.
Amazing---this line of thinking is amazing because CHRISH actually believes he's HELPING Buffalo! I bet he's part of the crew that HOPES Buffalo fails---He must be from Rochester.
the center of buffalo-niagara is shifting to the north, to amherst and southern niagara county. Maybe the city of Buffalo should just be allowed to diminish gracefully. the new economic and political ceter is already asserting itself. These jurisdictions could care less what these special interest groups say.
If done right, and Bass Pro does close (gawd forbid) and this area is "HOTT", then you wouldn't have a problem getting a NEW Retailer inside to take it's place. That is how we should be thinking. RE-DEVELOPING this area to make it "HOTT", not developing it for one retailer.
Hey chrish---Can you show me where these items you highlighted are located? I'd love to visit:
"What's wrong with a tool that gave the citizens of Buffalo a rewatered Commercial Slip, a replica bowstring bridge, and a recreated Canal District street network?"
Move to Humbolt County you silly hippie!
Keller - Well stated! Buffalo is worse than many third world nations. At least the third world countries know that they have problems and are working to do something about them.
RIGHT ON BFLROX!!! So true and to the point regarding Lockport.....Why can't we have excitment downtown...this is a CITY....We may actually draw more tourists here if we offered something EXCITING , rather than the boring parkland that these old farts want MORE OF. And one thing you all have to be aware of....If you want the hustle and bustle back downtown. Small boutiques is not going to cut it. BIG NAMED STORES LIKE BASS WILL BE YOUR ANCHOR TO LURE IN THE SMALL SHOPS YOU ALL SO WANT AND NEED!!!!......A destination store, whether it's up to your standards or not is what lures other businesses to an area, the proof is out there and has been told many times. So what if we end up with a so called "Disney Theme" downtown, I'd come downtown more often to see that. I wont come down now with nothing to do. Our downtown is a dead zone (IT'S FACT) no retail, empty streets, no security on the streets, the only life you see right now are loony bins and thugs....BRING ON THE DISNEY THEME!
C) there will be either retail on the ramps' ground floor, or a ring of development on three sides
The parking garages will include ground level retail spaces so interaction and interest from sidewalk to inside and vice versa is encouraged.
Platt4 and Urbanbody, that will be great but is it written anywhere official as a requirement? If so then that's an important point and would seem to deflate a lot of the protester arguments.
I looked in the PDF doc plan that BRO posted last week and don't see where it says that. http://www.buffalorising.com/2007/04/06/bass_aud.pdf
And in the jpg link from Platt4, the Historic Block Parking (site marked "A" in that) is not surrounded by development on any of its sides, and neither the drawing nor the plan seem to indicate what's to be on the ground floors of any of the parking sites A, B, C, or D.
But maybe all this is stated somewhere in the plan and I didn't see it.
I love this city, my home since I moved here at age 8. I remember the thriving downtown, before the rapid transit. I remember the camaraderie of the Blizzard on '77. I remember the smell of the smelting furnaces coming into the city on warm summer nights before steel production moved overseas. I remember the folding of the Courier-Express. I remember the years of "Talkin' Proud". There have been up-times, and down-times, but over 30 years, more than our share of down-times.
This was an area whose pride rested on industry and commerce, by water and rail, and whose resourcefulness was tested as these bedrocks proved to build upon sand. As the Swiss never recovered from the shift from mechanical clocks to quartz crystals, so Buffalo and her brethren staggered, fell and are yet learning to crawl.
Downtown yielded no State University, no LRRT success, no convention mecca, no signature bridge. A short list of long wishes to be sure, but each one an idea in search of a home, and ones in which many wanted to believe. The so-called "silver bullets" did not slay the demons of decline, but each did provide hope, if only for a short time.
With the movement on the Cobblestone District, there is at least an acknowledgment of past sins; that there is such a thing as destroying the past too hastily and too wantonly. Progress and development lead to the future, but only when the choices we make are measured and proportional to the desired outcome.
Preservationists of this city are to be applauded for their guardianship, and for asking the hard question "why" in cases where some see brick, mortar, plaster & lathe only for their physical composition, not for the value of the whole. However, not every building or site, however beautiful it may have been, is worth saving if the progress its sacrifice holds is not measured and proportional to the desired outcome.
The Commercial Slip and the development around it are a huge step forward to the creation of a vibrant waterfront and the work to date is really more than I thought would ever happen. I am of the thought that we must move forward with this development, mindful of its place in history as the opening to the West, an endeavor that, in and of itself, required both foresight and risk.
No matter what we all feel about this Bass Pro plan, it was the decline of commerce that marked the decline of our urban core. What was not killed by the Welland Canal and by the closure of the steel plants was finished off by pedestrian malls and the creeping blight that ensued. Perhaps it is a seed of commerce, no matter how divisive, that may prove to be the start of the road back.
The lake and this store's development may be a true fit that will allow it to thrive and attract other merchants to this site. I too would hate to see it become yet another chain-based mall, but I am willing to take a chance. I did not think Ithat with the old Aud plan, but now I can see something that makes more sense. No store can take away the importance of the site of the end of the Erie Canal in this country's history, and should the store fail, then a well constructed and appropriately styled building left in it's wake is better than Aud becoming an empty shell once again.
I wish that museum, galleries and historical sites had the pull that I think they should, but we have to confront the realities of today. We are not our parents or grandparents, and we do not have the same sense of history and continuity that once were more prevalent in our society.
If this plan means taking a vacant, piece of historic real estate that is willing to make a go of it I will, with some reservation, give the benefit of the doubt and see what comes. The price of inaction without a viable alternative is too high. The Erie Canal was about commerce; perhaps it can be again with this first leg up.
Hurray for the obstructionists on this one. Why, if a big box retail store is such a good idea here, is public money needed? Why, if we truly believe in free enterprise, are my taxpayer dollars going to subsidize a competitor to numerous stores already contributing to the tax base (see Gander Mountain, Dick's, et. al.). What is so freaking great about Bass Pro that we should need to give them corporate welfare to impose a big box on a unique piece of Buffalo history?
If the entire waterfront were park and greenspace instead of heavily subsidized competition to stores already doing business here, I'd be a happier camper.
I'm glad UB went to Amherst: where it was proposed in Buffalo (LaSalle Park) would have been much too small to grow UB into a major university. That was not, as is often characterized, a Buffalo mistake.
I'm a professional commercial real estate agent. I love development. I just don't like wasting taxpayer dollars looking for silver bullets like this. All you commentators lamenting Buffalo's lack of progress, look around. There's more going on downtown now than there has been in decades. I fail to see how a big box retail store does much to benefit the community at large or the site in particular. Why should I want to shop at a bass pro? Why should I require your tax dollars for me to do it?
Here's to Tim Tielman, Scot Fisher and the Hippies!
Exactly the reason why I will never move back to Buffalo... So tired of the lack of development I will never move back. Hope you're all happy.
Dear "vavoom", who wrote, "I wish some blog would list the names of these closet case Businessmen who are litigating this".
Such a smart comment! And the blog revealing the names of the "closet case" people writing here? The blog revealing your name?
I am so impressed with the number of people in Buffalo we must have in the witness protection program!
We've all missed the most upsetting part of this post.
West Coast Perspective (an out of towner) (happy to have him) has dissed our buffalo bills. how dare he. screw the parking ramps....no out of towners comes to my city and and puts down my buffalo bills. i will be filling a lawsuit.
;)
Robert,
Buffalo is not anything at all like Boca or Santa Monica, and to compare green space usage in those places that have year round warm climates is laughable.
Green space in Buffalo has a really limited amount of time in which it could be used. It generates no taxes, and there's green space planned/existing near this site. Given the site location and the other surrounding development that's planned it makes less sense to create a park, right next to the naval park that's right next to another park.
There's a greater chance for the area to be utilized if there's some sort of commercial presence than if it's green space. Especially given it's proximity to the arena. How is it that someone in commercial real estate can't see that?
I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy your visit to Bass Pro. I assume this means your not the "outdoor" type. The selection of products they carry is dramatically better than the stores you've listed. That's one of the reasons their such a sought after retailer.
tjc246 - Our story is so significant that we built a skyway right through it. Now that's the true story right there.
If we continue to tie up every issue in court, Monday Morning Quarterbacks, Buffalo will be nothing more than a doormat to Canada.
One thing you forget Robertbinisz.. is that the elected representatives from erie and niagara counties have just negotiated a setllement with the power authority that will fund some 60 - 100 miles of park along the nigara river, from lake erie to lake ontario. How much open parkland do you need? Do you think a couple of acres is going to affect public access. !
I'm amused that a dumpy aging lawyer in a suit & tie and a bad hairpiece, with nary a piercing, tattoo, or dreadlock, can get called a "hippie." You just made his day.
Those dreaded "hippies" couldn't buy anything on the land being discussed here if they wanted to because we, the people, care of the NFTA and other public entities, already own it.
If there is anyone who has made concrete contributions to the revitalization of Buffalo, it is Tim Tielman and the Preservation Coalition, who helped save "worthless" downtown buildings that are now being converted into cool downtown lofts. They helped establish the Joseph Ellicott and Hamlin Park historic districts. They saved all sorts of buildings that are occupied, rehabilitated, on the tax rolls, and no one would dream of demolishing them today.
Typical for this area....A great idea one day, blocked the next day...And we wonder why PEOPLE LEAVE!!!!!
If this project gets killed, it will be one more reason to leave this area.
/24 years old with masters degree //Half of my friends have left the area
coolrobc, you state...
"I wonder how many of these people from the business community that are opposed to this project happen to be developers that are not involved in the project, hmmm..."
This is exactly why they are anonymous and shame on the News for allowing that kind of reporting. This isn't watergate and deep throat. If you don't want your identity revealed then you shouldn't be quoted in the article.
As I stated somewhere else I'm officially disgusted with this town and you who love to jump on us who actually consider leaving this place after being faithful supporters for years should just shut your damn mouth because I am very close to deciding to look out of town to get out of here for a place that is progressive and can actually work together and be understanding of different opinions. We actually have people bashing Bass Pro and the Ethanol Plant? It is fine to voice an opinion but when an opinion of a few ends up dictating policy and halts nearly all development in an already depressed city I see no alternative but to look elsewhere for a place with greater potential for myself, a recent Graduate School graduate from UB that has been born here and lived here all my life. I've had it with lawsuits and people trying to kill any project because "its not the solution". Since when does it have to be the solution to all Buffalo's troubles. We've had 40+ years of screw ups and doing absolutely nothing. Believe me, no one project will turn this city around. Unless we start supporting projects and getting some new physical growth and change around here we will never change. 500,000+ people have left this area and you can't blame them for that. Could you imagine how this area would look with an extra 500K people living here? They recognize what I am starting to recognize. Until this area becomes progressive and stops just talking about working together and actually does there is nothing here for them. The reason lawsuits are constantly pitched and groups come out of the woodwork against everything with a feverish effort to kill projects anyway they can is the same reason that suburban towns and the cities and villages compete against one another within the same damn region. We live in a provincial town with little kingdoms all at war with one another that cannot and refuse to see the bigger picture. This is a reflection of our politicians and many of the people here who still hang onto the old neighborhood vs. neighborhood mentaility. The only problem now is that the old neighborhoods have spread into the burbs and we now have suburban residents also in the mix. I swear the old ethnically divided neighborhoods have morphed into some odd geographic divide, a sort of geographically based segregation based on the name of the political boundary you happen to be in. We who seek growth and positive development should not be worn down by those who want things to remain as they were in 1890. It will not be 1890 here again and those days are gone. We who seek growth and prosperity in this region should expect our political representatives to represent our interests and keep their own grudges for one another out of the political process. Isnt this a government for the people by the people? Why is it that the smallest special interest groups have the biggest voice around here? Perhaps its because the majority of people are hard working individuals that have families, jobs, etc. We should trust that those entrusted to move the area forward economically are doing so. Do we see growth? Obviously someone isnt doing their job correctly and hasnt been doing their job correctly for quite some time. We here about the issues and problems facing the region and yet no one comes out with a full scale attack to adress them. So, the masses go about their daily lives around here steadily seeing interesting new projects and proposals come and go and come and go and see no real progress around here while statistics come out from time to time to tell us just how badly things are around here and that other areas must be doing something right and are actually in growth mode, something progressive and positive. Its hard not to jump ship when your ship has been taking on so much damn water and it seems like everyone would rather fight about who should bail the ship out instead of getting down and dirty picking up a bucket and bailing the thing out, patching the hole and getting the damn thing afloat once more. I'm dumb to think that my comments will be heard positively because many will prbably tell me to pack my bags and take off with the if your not with us your against us mentality. Well, right now yes i'm against whats going on here and maybe i should jump ship. One things for certain though. When I end up wherever I may end up, I expect my ship to be going somewhere. It amazes me that we fight progress going on downtown, people willing to give it a go in a downtown with plenty of hustlers and people who feel free to scream at one another and let the whole world know their domestic problems within a quick earshot of tourists, children, the elderly, business persons, etc. I love to walk up our main street and hear people screaming at one another with words like fuck, mother fucker, bitch, ho, ass hole, etc. screamed loud and proud and audible from 3 blocks away. What the hell kind of downtown do we have here? And we are willing to bash people willing to try something to better it down here? Sorry for all you who think these problems are common place everywhere including the burbs but I have to tell you that you are sorely out of touch with reality on this. I can go a whole year in a suburban office park without hearing the shit that people are spewing out downtown where I work on a regular basis up and down Main Street. We really gotta start cleaning up these streets before we have any place to judge anyone trying to build down here.
Robert- You ask why we have to subsidize them...because if we don't, someone else will and then we have no development deal at all instead of one that maybe could be better. I agree, it is like corporate welfare but where the dealmakers could make up for it is by wordage in the contract that states that public money must be paid back should they close or move. I wish that were implemented for any business that public dollars were put into. Geico and Citicorp and others were subsidized to move/stay/expand here as well. It's an unfortunate part of today's business climate, we have to figure out how to reclaim the public investment should any of those businesses falter without detering them from setting up shop here in the first place.
Green space doesnt attract tourism or money. Which hippy coined the phrase "big box store" Have you ever been to a BassPro store? How does keeping the waterfront looking like it did in 1900 do anything for the city? Someone please give a rational explanation of how Buffalo will benefit from a 19th century warf. Maybe we should build a long bike path for all the dirty Elmwood hippies to ride there 30 yr old bicycles on while their crusty dreadlocks swing in the wind. Then maybe you assholes can knock down the skyway and use the rubble to build a huge statue of Jim Morrison all jaked up on heroin. I think Terrapin Station should build a tapestry super store in the Aud. We can all sit on the warf and smoke dope and talk about how sweet it would have been to see Hendrix live. CHARLOTTE NC, HERE I COME.
Sir Bob, touché. The loss of the Elmwood Hotel proposal is certainly mourned. Who knew a 150-year-old deed restriction would have such weight in modern law?
I wish some blog would list the names of these closet case Businessmen who are litigating this, along with the name of their Business . That will give an angry public, which supports bass Pro, the option to boycott their services.
That seems to be the norm in this town...Afraid of "what could be" and stop anything great from happening here....But then again, who really cares. Without REAL JOBS, who is actually moving here? We are only losing people to BETTER PLACES. Ones that are already DEVELOPED and/or DEVELOPING themselfs and are not afraid of change like the hicks in this town are. All you have to do is talk to some of these people (the locals) and listen to the shit that actually comes out of their mouths. It's like, "have you EVER been outside of Buffalo in your life?", and "do you even know what your talking about?"....It does seem all the normal people have already left.
Perry,
It cannot be said any simpler. How come the people who oppose Bass Pro going in the proposed location choose to ignore posts of this nature?? I'd love to see their response to this and only this.
I'd love to see a breakout of the amount of money that the city aims to provide Bass Pro for construction, plus tax breaks. Compare that to the amount of revenue and actual job salaries added to the economy. Would it be better for the city/state/county to allocate that money elsewhere? Can't recall ever seeing a comparison.
So obviously the 12th man should just get inline with the government. Wouldn't the best argument to vote republican be if you wanted the site left there as an abandoned rr station and coal dock since those were demolished and the site reclaimed with government dollars?
Also, no one is moving here to work at bass pro, that is the problem, it is faulty economic development. Yes all ranges of jobs are needed, but this will not stem the flow of people leaving. (as I post from Philadelphia)
chrish, The only reason why the deed killed the Elmwood hotel project so quickly: The deed wasn't challenged!
I'm not a lawyer, but I have to believe that a good one could overturn it via eminent domain recourse...some technicality..or other modern day court decision.
Any body ever wonder if it would be best if we forgot about the frickenn waterfront for the next 25 years and worked on the downtown thats growing at the moment...at a fairly rapid pace? What good does all this development do on the outskirts of downtown and on the fringes of an decrepit industrial area; doesn't this silver bullet bass pro crazyness reflect everything thats been done in the name of renewal for the last 100 years?
Overbuilding doesn't help anybody and it certainly doesn't help Buffalo, it would be wise take things from where they are now, but your assets before you work on acquisitons.
Wouldn't it be wise to take the power authority money we have now and put into our core of buildings and infrastructure that make it possible for businesses and people to function
Last time I checked downtown has ....
i.e. - actual businesses... whats on the waterfront?
People... last estimate I heard was 50,000 workers in the downtown core and 1,000 new inhabitants last year. Excellant staring point for small scale retail, People want an excellant downtown they can live work and play in.
That crappy light rail... even though its crappy influx of development coupled with the return of cars to main street could provide a quite accessible way to move around the core
Ample parking...ooo shit
I for one would like to see the waterfront forgotten until the downtown core is bursting at the seems... we've had an unacceptable downtown environment forever and the only real thing u can do there is get drunk. Redevelop what you have before you develop what you don't..
1. Bass Pro- They operate whatever hours they want... personally I don't see retailers flocking to the surrounding basspro area especially with the latest round of lawsuits... people dont' want to be part of that crap. I wouldn't compare it to the one in Auburn... completly different environment.
2. Benderson, Uniland, Opus... - Personally I don't think we'll find a major developer thats local capable of bulding the waterfront we all want. I don't know much about Opus, but I do know that Uniland is not exactly great at what they do and is a built first, study later type of developer.
Benderson's building seem to be kind of shotty.. I've been in more than one of their properties and seen leaky roofs... poor paint jobs, low maintaince etc... it seems that their out to get the most for themselves... not exactly the best choice for our waterfront considering who runs that company and their origins in the creation of what we all know as the strip mall. I don't like it...
Parks, museums, bass pro, hsbc, casino... etc... they all work the same way, people come take in a sabres game... maybe grab a bit to eat...sit in the park ( doubtful with the lack of police).. and look around at the bass pro... then they drive home
Bass pro will do no good....more taxes generated for our dysfunctional county, but other than that they only way we'll ever regenerate downtown and have a quality, popular successful waterfront is if we give more people reasons to live, work, and play downtown... and basspro isn't where we should start
Keller,
Better Midler....OMG...invoking her name is hilarilous. Thanks for the memories.
Some of us can remember when one of her roadies got busted for having a joint. Bette said she'd never return to the City...and you know....she never did. So we're safe: She'll never see the dump she saw in the '70s still exists (more the most part).
I agree with Hospitable. We have to start re-building our downtown core before we spread out. Or else we end up with sperate areas that will not connect in one downtown. It's true, we only have places to eat and drink and nowhere to SHOP. A nearly empty downtown when it comes to any street life (that is not on Chippewa St or Main St. during weekday lunch hours).
Ken,
I know, it was rhetorical. ;)
I really wish that Greater Buffalo had to show where the money is coming from. I find it hard to believe that the money is all coming from "concerned citizens". The majority of people I know, even the green, conservation, and preservation minded people think this is a better idea for this sites reuse than green space.
Also, to follow up on Perry's comment. Development of this site increases the likelihood of removing the skyway and adding street level access to the outer harbor, where there's already park and more intended green space.
Chrish -
Don't forget the lawsuit to stop the hotel at Elmwood and Forest.
I'm sure there's lots more, though, so your count is a bit low.
DanielSack,
The difference is that this is a blog, and we're not reporting this as news...
Wouldn't it be nice to actually use Main Street as a retail cooridor as it is constructed...but that isn't as glamorous so the politicians skip it. Even Harrisburg PA has a better downtown retail cooridor than Buffalo and it only has 80,000 residents.
I don't know... I can't help but think that this project will be killed just like the rest of them.... I'm not a pessismist I just simply live here, couple of things:
1. I support the fact that bass pro is directly on the waterfront, its a unique store, that is a historical reproduction. 2. I cannot defend the loss of a couple of acres of greenspace when we're building 65 miles of it from dt waterfront to Lake Ontario. 3. So so on the parking, I like the link to the baltimore parking info. bout their 12,000 spaces availble and all... and I'm also well aware of the fact that parking is necessary to establishments like bass pro and any retail corrodor. We'll always need parking ramps b/c we'll never have anything else available.. ( i.e. - trains, subways.. etc) 4. Why are we demolishing the aud and rebuilding a parking ramp in its place, did i not see an article bout keeping the aud as a ramp i nstead of demolishing it? Don't know if I can support 1800 more parking spaces that close to the waterfront. 5. I can't help but wonder if this is our chance for our own Eaton Center ( Toronto). Demolish the aud... dig a big hole, 2000 underground parking spaces.... retail first -3rd levels... office on top... open air entrances to the street, subway access.... we can think bigger than just 1800 spot parking ramps 6. If PARKING IS A MUST... then I like the fact of having a big cluster than parking ramps all over the place.. people can still park here and walk to other destinations.. if this goes through i'd propose clamping down on other pakring ramps in the city and forcing people to park in this district... make them walkk 5.
RobertBiniszkiewicz,
I've said it before and I'll say it again. BassPro is VERY different than Gander, Dick's, etc. Whether you like the idea or not, in order to get any retailer to move into that area you need an anchor tenant. As far as your question about why should you shop at BassPro, I have a question for you: Why should you not shop at BassPro? It's not corporate welfare, it's the city/state investing in a neighborhood to spur further development.
They are going to have to spend taxpayer money in that area anyway in order to develop it as a park, maybe not 25 million, but they're still going to have to spend money down there.
"If" BassPro is a success and spurs economic development in that area increases the tax base and winds up helping spur further development in that area, it will be money well spent.
I don't see BassPro as a silver bullet. I see it as a start.
I love that I live in a city where nothing UNhistorical can be developed, and lawsuits are filed everytime we try to move foward to make this city better. Ive lived here all my life and im getting tired of conservationist opposing every deveopment plan in the works. I undersatnd its a historical site, but get over it!! We are never going to reach our potential as the great city we are if we keep looking into the past!
Greenspace DOES attract visitors and tourists and upscale reidents.
I lived for a few years in Boca Raton Florida. Huge growth. Not unconnected to this growth is pristine waterfront park, unlike every other Florida city near it. Ditto for Santa Monica California. Lots of well preserved ocean accesss is key to the attractiveness of these communities as opposed to their neighbors north and south.
Yes, I have been to a Bass Pro store (Charlotte, NC). I am completely underwhelmed. I cannot think of a single reason I would ever step foot into the proposed one here.
As for the term "Big Box". I am in commercial real estate. Big Box is a term used often in my industry to describe any retail box of roughly 100,000 s.f. or more. This is a big box. Why should I support it? If there are already Bass Pro stores in Pittsburgh, Toronto, the finger lakes and here, how many out of towners will come to this one? And no, from what I've seen of the store I was in, it is no different, in concept or size, from Gander Mountain, save that they may sell more boats and thus compete on an uneven playing field with every other purveyor of boats now in business, paying taxes to subsidize Bass Pro.
In my opinion, the opposition to this project stems from two motivations. The first is an aversion to free enterprise. The second, and closly related to the first, is a dislike for the for the store going in. The desire for urbaninity on the waterfront is being tainted by a store that is decidedly un-urban, namely a hunting and fishing store.
Why do we have to subsidize them with tax dollars? Why can't they compete on an even footing? What do they do for us as a community that is worth paying them to come here?
As for the outdoor type, my wife and I own (flatwater) kayaks. We both like camping. We have a two and four year old at home, so we haven't done that lately, but we look forward to with them soon. My mother happens to live right on the lake which is great for us and the kids, who both love the water. I like nature trails and parks which are open to everyone. I would like Delaware Park to become public greenspace again instead of a golf course, but I like golf, too.
The comparison to Boca and Santa Monica bears closer examination than you credit: we are not a tourist destination, true. We have winter, no doubt. The comparison is not between us and them but rather betwixt those communities and their immediate and nearby neighbors, north and south.
Boca is the toniest town in its region. Ditto for Santa Monica. All the other coastal communities in both regions enjoy similarly wonderful weather. Yet these two communities, in contrast to their immediate and nearby neighbors north and south, attract the toniest residents. Why? I maintain it is in very significant part due to the decisions made decades ago by civic leaders in those communities to make the waterfront public. Their neighbors, north and south made different decisions, privatizing their waterfronts except for a few beaches. The money poured into the community in each region where the quality of life exceedes that of its neighbors. The wonderful stretch of beachfront park in both cases made these communities attractive--moreso than everyone else around them.
We could be more attractive than the Detroits and Clevelands and Pittsburghs and Milwaukees of the world. We could stand out amongst our own competitive set by our public spaces. Our waterfront could propel us to a better national image. I'm a commercial real estate broker and I also own a handful of commercial properties. I'm all for development and re development. I'm not for corporate welfare, which this is.
I'm skeptical that retail is the appropriate use for the waterfront, particularly given winters here. Who will go to bass pro in January and February other than sports die hards? If they go belly up, what do we do with the space?
As for green space not contributing to the tax base and drawing no interest:
-Bass Pro is not contributing to the tax base. They're taking. -Last time I checked, Delaware Park gets a lot of people coming to it all summer long. State Parks are pretty popular. Have some restaurants and other businesses not dependent upon tax dollars build up a community near the park, if you should like to draw more people. But don't waste tax dollars on an out of scale suspect retail proposition which only makes sense at ridiculously low rent and no real estate taxes.
You know, I visited a Bass Pro store in Auburn to see what all the hype was about. Sure, it's a big hunting, fishing, and sporting good store. Was there tons of development around it that likely wouldntt have been there without it? Nope, there were industrial shops all around, closed on the Saturday that I went to visit.
By the way much of that land on the ocean is a federal military reservation. They can't build on it.
Of course, I'm not adamantly opposed to Bass Pro. I don't think it's some magical solution to everyone's problems and would move parking to another location (with appropriate safety for walking to the shops, yada yada yada).
Robert,
Again, I believe your comparison of green space in the cities you've stated is inherently flawed. Comparing access along the Buffalo rover to access along the Pacific ocean is comical. We're talking about a piece of former commercial property that if it were not for dredging would be unnavigable. This former commercial property is going to be reused for a commercial venture. While the company is getting a relatively small subsidy to build there, I don't see the problem. I can't see any development going on in this area without some sort of subsidy.
Your assertion that BassPro isn't contributing to the tax base is flat out wrong. They will be paying employment taxes, and they will also be generating sales tax revenue. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those taxes? They also need to pay contractors to construct the interior of the store, also generating employment taxes.
There's a lot more to taxes than real estate taxes.
There's plenty of clear sites available for greens pace elsewhere that make much more sense than this site.
"Those dreaded "hippies" couldn't buy anything on the land being discussed here if they wanted to because we, the people, care of the NFTA and other public entities, already own it." I guess you just made the best argument ever to vote Republican. Only 75 years of liberals and labor unions could produce that circumstance.
"If there is anyone who has made concrete contributions to the revitalization of Buffalo, it is Tim Tielman and the Preservation Coalition, who helped save "worthless" downtown buildings that are now being converted into cool downtown lofts. They helped establish the Joseph Ellicott and Hamlin Park historic districts. They saved all sorts of buildings that are occupied, rehabilitated, on the tax rolls, and no one would dream of demolishing them today." I love it when the '12th man' actually thinks they make a big difference. By Gosh, the Hamlin Park Historic District is a destination---a true tourist magnet with significant economic impact. If we could replicate this effort 12 more times, look out New Orleans!
While Erie County is falling farther and farther behind the ENTIRE developed world---you friggin hippies think you are doing good. Even the Socialists in Berkeley, CA and Cambridge, MA have it figured out. Perhaps you should put the bong down and travel the region, (from Chicago to Nashville to Hartford to Manchester to Burlington, VT). You might realize that we look like a 3rd rate North Korean city compared to the world around us.
We have a chance to move forward---hindering this progress is anti-Buffalo.
Robert B. Santa Monica is a beautiful city, but it only has 2 miles of ocean front. Only one half of that (about 12 city blocks) is Palasades Park, which is about a half city block deep. The other mile is built up close to the beach.
I think that Chrish (L) is on to something here. I don't agree with the height of the Bashar Issa's proposed tower and the negative impact that it will have on surrounding buildings. I believe that he should have rebuilt the building that was torn down in the spot to retain historical accuracy. I am opposed to the renovation of the AM&As building, it should be restored as a retail department store as it was originally intended. I would also like to file a lawsuit against the developers in the cobblestone district; they are building new, single-use suburban style office buildings instead of keeping with the historical theme of that part of the city. The new micro-parks do not reflect the original plan for the waterfront, so we need to stop those now. Lawsuits should be filed against all projects to ensure that all opinions are heard.
I JUST WANT TO RE POST SOMETHING THAT WAS WRITTEN BY URBAN BODY. VERY IMPORTANT TO READ. ANSWERS MANY QUESTIONS. Thank you urbanbody.
UrbanBody 1 ratings12345 Today, 19:06SerenityNow, If you look at the parking plan, it is obvious, even at this very early stage, that parking is nested behind the street-facing elements of retail and other activities. See: http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/wgrz/news/CanalSideparkingplan.jpg Also see this rendering that clearly indicates “Mixed Use” and “retail” etc. within each parking area: I doubt retail is going to be on the top floor, so let’s safely assume it will be on the ground floor. http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/wgrz/news/CanalSideSitePlan.pdf Within the WGRZ audio/video announcement we can see and hear Joel Giambra ask for--and receive--approval from Charles Rosenow, ECHDC chairman, to have a 'preservation' expert sit on the Architectural Review Committee (ARC). The charge of the committee is to ensure the entire project district retains the look and feel of the 1880s. Obviously that cannot be 100 percent replicated, so we should assume the "flavor" of the same period will be injected as needed. Either way, we should look to the ARC to protect the authenticity of the district. This is not a plan of one group at the expense of another—it is a plan for all. The concerns of well-intentioned preservationists should be heard and negotiated in as practical. Obstructionists and untenable positions should not be allowed--so back away from the table. The same ARC must see and approve all Bass Pro, Benderson (and ECHDC) designs, schematics. See the pre-Development Agreement PDF page 6, point 3; and page 8, point 7. The 'Project Site' specifically states that developments on the Central Wharf site must 'seek to recreate' the 1880s designs, so the Wharf is protected against parking intrusions. PDF page 6, point 1 As a further example of what the intent is, the pre-Dev. Agr., page 9, point "c", states that Benderson's developments on the Aud block integrate fully with the EDHDC parking structure. I hope the above eases your (others) big concerns about this not-yet-even-fully designed project. All the fine details are yet to come. We should give the designers an opportunity to do their work before we criticize thin air. At the least, we should all expect some public sessions to allow citizens’ feedback. It would also be good for Quinn and crew to come out now and do a better PR job selling the project so incorrect and distorted information doesn’t permeate our lives.
Urban Body you have the best commentary on this issue. Calm, fact-filled, and direct. the rest? Do your homework.
coolrboc...you beat me to the punch. I am not sure of the relevance of posting your "real name" on a message board. Does this make your posts more credible?
PS to DanielSack...Last time I looked the Buffalo News was not quoting my anonymous ramblings in articles they are printing. So much for the hypocrisy that only you recognize.
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