Looks to me in 30s they decided to build and aud as one of many projects to put people to work building it, and because they wanted the city to have an aud. General references were made by mayors of the time of waterfront improvements, but I think those were in the context of shipping and industry - near the aud but maybe not related to it other than proximity. Hard to know of course.

On that link I posted previously of all mayoral speeches, the next mayor in 1939 referred to funding approval for the aud, and said it's one part of 'far-reaching' waterfront development. But he didn't mention other parts and didn't say one way or another whether the aud was expected to cause spin-off. I'm coming down on the side of RisingDamp that the aud probably was not sold as a silver bullet back then. Their whole manner seems much more level headed compared to grandiose claims our recent leaders throw at us.

Here's what Mayor Holling said in 1939:

...Work is well under way on the Lakeview housing project...which will provide modern apartments for 668 low-income families. Construction work has also been started on the Willert Park project...which will provide modern quarters for 173 families in our Negro district.

"In addition to this, proceedings were well under way during the last year for a large housing project in the Elk-Alabama section.

"During the year, we have taken advantage of the Public Works Administration funds to aid in the financing of a new convention hall and municipal auditorium. The building, which will be located at Main Street and Terrace, is the first step in a far-reaching program to develop the waterfront.

"Work is now well under way on the new improvement at The Circle to be known as the Kleinhans Music Hall.

"This...building is being erected...at no cost to the City. The federal government will contribute...a grant and the remainder is provided from funds left in trust for this purpose by the late Mr. and Mrs. Edward L. Kleinhans ...

Steel - I'm always at the heart of the matter. It's the reader's job to find the matter in what I say, like finding images in those hidden image pictures.

I agree with you about focusing resources better, and in fact I would've focused them away from ArtSpace subsidies in the first place and spent the money about a 1000 different ways (incl. major upgrades to permits/inspections/re-sales as I've advocated here) before spending on artist lofts, but I won't open that can of worms again. Too late now - ArtSpace is here, it's {self-censored, j/k}, and I'll get used to it. Seriously, I don't wish it failure, and I don't blame artists for wanting nice lofts. but I don't think it ever had any hope of big spin-off effects no matter what govt does from here forward, and I agree with BTD it's just not a big deal in the scheme of things.

Even if it never was built, I'd still say people living on those blocks around it deserve better from the city in terms of crime prevention, demolishing fire traps, a better (not necessarily more costly) school system, etc., etc., etc. And none of the 'etc.' are new parks either. FIxing up exisitng parks and playgrounds would be in the etc. list.

Having ArtSpace here in no way makes those blocks a higher priority in my opinion, and it doesn't lower priority either. My guess is no matter how much extra money govt may be throw at ArtSpace surroundings now just because it's there, the biggest impact of ArtSpace will be to increase snack and beer profits of the Delta Sonic store across the street that so many urbanists opposed being built. Some irony there.

Viking,

If having a downtown shopping corridor, functional public transportation and other urban amenities are included in better pastures then I guess it makes sense that many of us have left. To desire something greater of the city you live in should always be a goal. It seems to me that many people in Buffalo do enjoy the current Buffalo, hence nothing changes. The problem with that is eventually all that will be left are retirees, and wards of the welfare state, but employed and non. If you had a farm you would fertilize your pasture would you not?

At least Viking is candid about it. It would help explain a lot if some others 'came out' and announced they share that hope of not growing jobs and population - Eliot Spitzer, Phil Rumore, George Pataki, Dale Volker, many of our assembly members and state senators, etc., etc.

Viking - Curious though, how much more population do we need to lose, or have we finally reached our proper levels of size at just under 270K people and of prosperity at one notch above Detroit?

Letsee, since 1950 we've reduced from 580,000 to under 270,000 at last estimate and apparently still dropping fast. So if we had held steady all that time then apparently we might have living among us an additional 300,000 more 'negative individual malcontent's who damage, pollute, decry and derail the good things we have', including their spouses and some of their offspring. Yeah how awful it would be to have all those additional people living, working, shopping, and dining at restaurants around here.

Why to you think the far reaching plans came to a screeching halt after the Aud?

It'd be interesting to know what Holling and others envisioned for far-reaching waterfront dev in 1940s, and whether any of it happened. Maybe some of it did. Doubtful it was similar to what's focused on these days (publicly-subsidized retail, museums, green space, etc).

Before St. Lawrence Seaway there was much commercial shipping here. Buffalo's pop in 1930, 40, and 50 was 573K, 576K and 580K. I'd guess need for so many jobs would've meant industry and shipping were focuses of waterfront dev goals back then. Those speeches mention need for a port authority. A history student or buff could search docs or meeting records from back then to find more detail of what Holling's speech alluded to. Maybe Skyway was another part of what he meant, in sense of regional economic dev.

Today it's easy to blame local pols for lack of waterfront dev, but I don't hear anybody suggesting obvious money-making uses for land around there. Bass Pro idea might be 'best' weak idea among other weak ideas, except for public funding which makes me against it. To me, museums and more green space aren't serious economic dev - just money-draining fun and games. Biggest obstacle to drawing people to waterfront is cold winds blowing east across lake which make even Spring and Fall mostly uncomfortable around there outdoors. (As the little fake historic village shopkeepers will learn the hard way.)

Maybe improving Erie Basin Marina would be a good idea one of these years and I wouldn't mind that for it's own sake, but we shouldn't expect spin-off. Off top of my head I can't think of anything likely to cause spin off down there other than possible a national retailer such as BP.

I wouldn't mind if most or all of now-vacant waterfront land became full of private non-retail businesses creating jobs - even if it meant no new public access beyond what we have now. That'd be real economic dev, but not feasible anyhow with NYS business environment.

Mayor Zimmerman's inaugural speech Jan 1934 makes brief reference to need for an aud in the context of moving people from welfare into public works jobs:

"First of all, we propose to dedicate our administration to the tremendous task of materially reducing unemployment and distress within the confines of our city. In seeking this office I unqualifiedly pledged myself to a constructive program whereby Buffalo would be put to work, and I am prepared immediately to go ahead with it.

... "Essential public improvements, such as the reclamation of our waterfront, the construction of a modern, adequate sewage system, the erection of a spacious municipal auditorium, must be undertaken.

"In the past four years many millions of dollars has been expended through city welfare channels. The taxpayers have been obliged to feed, clothe and house thousands of families and individuals who were the unfortunate victims of the depression. Boiled right down to a few words, a dole system was established in our midst, and from such a system the taxpayers have derived absolutely nothing in the way of material benefits.

"It is my firm conviction that we must at once rid ourselves of this extravagant and wasteful evil by using the millions which still must be spent on public welfare in creating work for thousands of our idle men and women through initiating necessary public improvements.

"It is far better for the city to create work for the unemployed and restore them to the former basis of self-respect and independence than to continue to squander huge sums of the taxpayers' money on an indefensible dole system that actually helps no one.

"Much of the social welfare machinery which has been set up in this city during the past four years to make war on the depression must be dismantled as rapidly as possible for the very good reason that the battle appears to have been won. . ...

From: http://www.buffalonian.com/history/industry/mayors/Zimmermann.htm

Ref: compilation by Michael Rizzo of Buffalo mayoral speeches, "Through The Mayor's Eyes - The Only Complete History of the Mayors of Buffalo, New York"

Gaustad,

based on your statement it is obvious that you have read NONE of my previous stories. Then again it is obvious you are only interested in reading your own writings.

RisingDamp,

See comment to Gaustad above. You should read the story before spending your precious time commenting here. The story is not about silver bullet projects. It is about the lack of follow through after the project. I understand that us BRO simpletons may actually need to read something prior to forming an opinion about it but please bare with use. We could never hope to reach you level of intellect.

As far as talking about silver bullets in other cities, I just say that this is a Buffalo blog. I think talking about those places in context of Buffalo would be very interesting. Unfortunately I don't know enough about them to do that. Would you please fill us in? I know it is a lot more work to write interesting and productive posts that stimulate conversation but you should give it a try. I sense that you could do it and you might actually like it better than constantly picking fights for no reason.

You say some things that are kind of odd so you will need to help me out. How can you claim that a WPA project like the Aud was not meant for economic development? That's what the WPA was for! To say that Buffalo was flush and growing during the depression is a bit goofy too. It was the D E P R E S S I O N ! Buffalo lost thousands of jobs and major corporations like Larkin Soap and Pierce Arrow closed down. Buffalo certainly had some future growth left in it but at this time period the best times were already in the city's past. This neighborhood did have boat docks and two train stations but it was not a nexus of local transportation. That would have been further up main street. Do you really think they expected someone from NYC to jump on a train for a game at the Aud. "Oh, we better locate this new arena next to the train station to capture that Chicago crowd" Give me a break! The only reason the Aud was located here is because they needed to clean up an old rotting slum area that also happened to be at the port of entry to Buffalo for many people. Nice view, get off the train and look at a slum. What better place to focus WPA resources. And what are the other crowd magnets in this area you are talking about? Plain and simple the Aud was a WPA silver bullet with no follow through. HSBC arena followed 60 years later with the same non plan one block away.

It is too bad you are uninterested in a conversation on here. You and your crew are oh so witty and we get it now. Buffalo sucks beyond all measure and there is no reason to talk further about it. There is no reason to highlight solutions to Buffalo's problems, no reason to highlight individuals and groups putting in hard work to save valuable neighborhoods (I know, I know, they are misguided,there is nothing of value in Buffalo),no reason to call attention to interesting events, no reason to highlight the city's entrepreneurs, no reason to expose opportunity and assets which are under appreciated. We get it. You have enlightened us about how terrible Buffalo is. You are so so cool for knowing that. And oh thank you so much for telling us that the local economy is bad and that taxes are high. Thanks for pointing out that this is driving away jobs and population. Who would have ever known that.

Basically what I am saying is why are you and you buddies wasting so much of your time here?

Viking said:

> If the recession deepens, closer to home, the people just hanging on in cities like Boston and New York may think Buffalo with it's low wages and cost of living , will look better than their current wage ratio to area scenario.

Like convention centers and baseball stadiums, cheap housing isn't a Buffalo's magic bullet, either; it's an indicator of low demand. Also, affordable housing isn't something that Buffalo has a lock on; look at Cleveland, Detroit, Grand Rapids, Indianapolis, Columbus, Rochester, Syracuse, Louisville, Omaha, Des Moines, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, and most of Texas. Why would a "real estate refugee" from LA or Chicago choose Buffalo over ... oh, Columbus? Good pizza and "authenticity" aren't going to be enough.

People have been talking about how cheap housing in Buffalo will eventually draw people to the region. Housing in Buffalo has been less expensive than the national average since the 1970s, but it still hasn't been a magnet drawing people and jobs to the region. Despite outrageous housing costs, places like Los Angeles, Seattle, NYC and Denver continue to grow and prosper. Why? Because the public at large value the amenities, culture, weather, economy and opportunity those regions offer over inexpensive housing, 20 minute commutes and Mighty Taco.

> As we lose jobs to the white collar and blue collar off shore locations , new industries will emerge and they will be in the same locations that fostered growth before for the same valid reasons. Buffalo is in that category and that is becoming more apparent as time goes on.

Industry emerged in Buffalo because it was an ideal break-in-bulk point (Erie Canal and railroads/Great Lakes shipping), and because it was ideally situated between what were then the primary locations of vital natural and agricultural resources (Iron ore in upper Michigan, wheat and corn in Minnesota/Nebraska/Kansas/Iowa/Dakotas, coal fields in WV/PA) and large markets (NYC, Boston, Philadelphia). Since the 1800s, transportation costs have dropped dramatically, the nations' transportation network has changed dramatically, iron ore in the UP is exhausted, and heavy industry is no longer the dominant part of the nation's economy. The locational advantages that Buffalo had in the 1800s and early 1900s are no longer relevant.

Buffalo needs a reason to exist, and that reason shouldn't be something based on the economy of 1880. "Maybe the factories will come back" is Old Buffalo thinking. Buffalo was a back-office mill town for most of its life. Buffalo's eternal fate shouldn't be that of a blue-collar town off the beaten path. Buffalo deserves better.

I am suprised some nit wit hasn't mentioned how we should preserve the entrance way to The Aud for the new Bass Pro store, which will never come and that we do not need.

Absent the good economy silver bullets without follow through are certainly doomed to failure

...Interesting that some want unbridled growth, I wonder for what reason, because we need more problems yet unidentified. ...If transplants come lets hope they bring no unpleasant baggage. ...

viking - Who said they want 'unbridled'? Looks like we'll be plenty bridled for as long as anyone around today is alive and probably well after. Buffalo/city hasn't had *any* people growth since 1940-1950 and trends are solidly in place for that to continue. Unless negative growth counts as growth. In that case, the 'unbridled' characterization isn't far off.

Anyhow, we needn't worry much about many transplants coming, with or without baggage. The Buffalo metro area is one of only six major metros in the whole U.S. predicted by a Univ of Penn Wharton study to lose population between 2000 and 2020. Even metro Detroit doesn't have that distinction. This is one of the six best places to be for minimizing chances of any problems caused by newcomers moving here.

http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/papers/1319.pdf

Forecasting 2020 U.S. County and MSA Populations April 2006

Population growth at the county level can be predicted using widely available demographic and economic data. Past recent growth, the presence of immigrants, the fraction of population older than 25 and younger than 65, low taxes, and good weather are all positively associated with population growth. ...

...Table IV displays our population growth forecasts for all U.S. metropolitan areas used in our analysis, based upon our county level forecasts and year 2000 MSA definitions. In this case, we rank metropolitan areas according to their expected population gains (or losses). A small number of major metropolitan areas are forecasted to lose population by 2020: New Orleans, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, and Youngstown-Warren.

The central cities of many other Rustbelt MSAs will continue to lose population. However, modest gains in their suburbs will offset further population decline from their MSAs. Notwithstanding mild positive metropolitan area growth, the cities of Cleveland, Philadelphia, Detroit, Milwaukee, New Haven, and Saint Louis are all expected to lag behind general U.S. population growth patterns through 2020. ...

Steel, so nice to see the Aud without the corrugated steel panels added in the 1970's.

On the ArtSpace neighborhood, there was an outstanding and surprisingly detailed plan developed - it's posted on David Torke's FixBuffalo blog - to leverage the project by extending the revitalization into the surrounding neighborhood. Chris Hawley worked on that plan, among others, overseen (I believe) by Chuck Thomas when he was still in the Buffalo planning office. The neighborhood around ArtSpace is truly something special - abounding with real estate opportunities for the visionary and enterprising - as anyone taking David's weekly tour (offered every Saturday at 11AM, meeting up at the Delta Sonic cafe on Main Street) will soon realize. If that plan remains just on paper, and buildings which add significant character to the neighborhood (like the one pictured) are wasted, it will be a sadly missed opportunity for the community.

I heard another 'for instance' this week on the 'silver bullet' theory: I helped organize an architecture/preservation talk in RaChaCha this week, and had a half dozen Buffalo folks attend, including legendary Buffalo architect Robert Coles. We got talking about the multi-million-dollar upgrade of the Buffalo schools, which has been winning kudos in certain circles because of the high standards of preservation practice being followed. All well and good. But Mr. Coles pointed out that there has been a lack of coordination of revitalization activity in the neighborhoods surrounding the schools receiving this investment - and seemingly little or no effort to leverage this big-ticket investment into investment in the surrounding communities. That would seem consistent with the posts I've seen on David Torke's FixBuffalo blog pointing out dilapidated housing across the street from gleaming new facilities such as the Performing Arts High School.

Not to pick on Buffalo - this lack of big picture thinking goes on in My Fair City, as well. We all know that our struggling upstate urban areas don't have the same access to resources as elsewhere in the country - shame on us if we don't use our brains to work smarter, and thoughtfully extract the most bang for every buck.

can we add Bashar Issa's tower to the failed silver bullet theory now?

John Martin- Yes you are correct that the Buffalo-Niagara region has been trailing the nation in growth of jobs and population but if you take sbrofs post in context it does have some good points.

1.Our region is a region of one million people...the wealth is in the suburbs and yes the job vacancy signs are all over the suburban strip corridors as well. The chronically unemployed in this city live in the city and are stuck their, deprived of these jobs. Wether this is because of an inadequate bus transit system (that if anyone has ever attempted to use to get to a job everyday ontime would realize) or racist tendencies im not so sure.

2. We always look at the health of our region by using the city as a barometer if you look to the suburbs you have your Amhersts, Clarences, Cheektowagas(well parts of at least), hamburgs, orchard parks, East Aurora's etc...Our region's economic output rivals most world countries economies..If we instituted an urban growth and started funnling money and investment more toward the areas of our region that needed it you would see a tangible, steady revitalization of many of these city and inner ring suburban areas. And as an added bonus those hardworking innercity residents lstuck in the city will start a steady outmigration to the outer and inner suburbs to get to the jobs they desperately need. 3. Yes the wealth is here already but if we funnel it into the right areas the region as a whole will begin seeing increased wealth, development and growth. This unification of interests will bring to the publics attention finally the stupidity of lining these big suburban homebuilders (Marrano, Patrick etc) and developers at the expense of the region as a whole...which in return means lower taxes more jobs.

STEEL -

This article, as poorly written as it is, is rather negative for someone like yourself. What has gotten into you? Did you also wake and realize that wishing and hoping only produces the village beer merchant?

BuffaloNY

Funny thing about old abandoned buildings is that they have a way of becoming quite valuable in themselves and to their surroundings once they are restored. But no, the story is not about one building it is about city development policy and lack of follow through planning.

Martin

Buffalo's problem is that is is stuck with backward thinking leadership both state and local supported by the people. I could go on but that is the core of the problem. There are plenty of successful examples for state and local leadership around the US to follow but they refuse and as they tend to get put back into office for keeping the status quo the stagnation continues. I wonder how much tax money has been lost in NYS due to lack of the kind of growth found throughout a majority of the country. Probably way more than would be lost by lowing taxes to the levels they should be. Strategic thinking is a big missing element in WNY. I think a good example of the type anti progress thinking that grips WNY can be seen in microcosm with the small clique of comenters who spend hours of their time trying to disrupt conversations on BRO. They love to complain but in the end they are all for the status quo.

gaustad> As a matter of fact, why don't you leave Buffalo, you may be happier.

Uhhh ... Steel lives in Chicago.

Like many of us expats, he still deeply cares about the city's built environment, culture, and future prospects. Being a loyal Buffalonian does not necessarily mean one always has to be upbeat about every aspect of the city. We're proud of our home and more than willing to promote and defend its reputation when necessary, but we know that blind "talking proud" is akin to denial of the very real problems the region has. If we don't at least acknowledge them, they can only fester and grow worse.

Exactly Wizard,

The demand will not happen magically. Unfortunately that is what the city seems to expect weather it be this project or others. With no plan and implementation there will never be any spin off from ArtSpace.

ArtSpace has shown that it can be a catalyst though. We just need the city on board to make it possible.

RisingDamp. I did not mean to suggest that Buffalo's failed leadership stemmed from the depression, just that is can be traced back that far and even further perhaps. You are right there are many Buffalos in waiting out there today. They may have it worse off than Buffalo in the future because our society has a hard time planning for the future. So many new cities are built for the very short time framework of what we want today with tomorrow be damned.

As fop the Aud, it had its great days for sure but its neighborhood has been quite bleak for many decades. Our city fathers of yore put and effort into bringing a great facility into the city and then what. They expected organic growth around it as would have happened in Buffalos more glorious times. That never happened. They city was left with decades of gravel (not even paved) parking lots and wind swept highway underpasses. Where is the vision in that?

I am not sure what you are getting at by calling me Mr. Positive. I will take it as a complement because I do take a positive attitude toward Buffalo. That does not mean I can't point out problems does it?

Steel,

I admire your pervasiveness. It appears as though you answer my questions with your own questions. Why are you avoiding the orginal questions?:

Is writing on BRO your full time job in Chicago?

Why do you have so much time on your hands that you are able to spend your day, while living in another cty, responding to lil ole me in Buffalo?

Refer to RDamps post reagrding your inaccuracies or do I need to spell it out for you again?

Please answer, or are you just spewing again?

Why don't you go out and have some drinks, you live in Chicago for gods sake....

NOw you are getting to the heart of the matter. There certainly are way more derelict buildings than the city could ever hope to save. For that matter they can't even manage proper inspection and enforcement. But when a major investment is made in an effort to make the city more attractive such as in the case of Art Space the city needs to make plans and then implement the pans which will solidify the perimeter of that investment. Otherwise the original investment is in danger of being sucked under. If there are valuable but neglected buildings in the ArtSpace neighborhood why not focus limited resources on at least stabilizing those structures if nothing else? If you spend a Billion dollars on school renovation, how about cleaning up at least the property across the street too. If you create a new hotel downtown as an neighborhood rejuvenation tool why not follow up with the rotting empty buildings across the street? Create seeds that grow outward

Also having a plan on paper is not having a plan. If it is not ever implemented it is nothing but pretty words and pictures

OK, How about this? At 15 years old the Aud was relatively new at the time of this picture. Though looking at the image it could be from the 60's as well. I think my point still stands. WPA projects were meant to spur the economy. I am sure they chose this location for a reason, that being that this was a blighted part of the city that this project would help transform.

John Martin perhaps what you say is true, that these were "part" of a master plan. The problem is that the remaining "parts" never get pushed through. I am sure that demolition of the remaining urban fabric around ArtSpace is not part of any plan involving that project.

maybe im really stoned but what was the point of this article? You guys have some good stories sometimes but 75% of the time i scratch my head and wonder why i wasted my time with this article. Am i correct to say the point of this long, epic article was to say how much of a shame it is that an old abandoned building on North Michigan Ave. is being torn down?

Steel, you are a hypocrite.

You are the one that attacks others. You are the one that tears people down. You are the one that is argumentative. You sound like a spoiled brat.

You contradict yourself in your articles. In one breath you proclaim BRO as a place to exchange positive ideas. In the other, you list a group of projects that have failed, in addition to having no follow though.

You are now demoralizing the same people that supported you who believe Buffalo is rising.

Do yourself a favor, pick one side and stick with it. If someone disagrees with you, try not to pout, kick and scream.

I think RDamp has made some real good points. I don't find his remarks offensive. No one is perfect. Hang in there, it will get better.

Downtownjunkie,

You are completely right, this is racist tenancies. I don't think that this is done on purpose, or come kind of master plan, but here is the typical white surburbanite's prespective:

1. The city has lots of crime
2. There are mostly Blacks in the city (not true Buffalo is < 50% black but when compaired to 98% white Lancaster etc...)
3. Why should I move to the city and expose my kids to the Black in the schools?

Really this is the fear of people who live out there. They'll never say it around mixed company but it is true and I've had people come out and say it to me.

Also, they don't care about fixing the problems of putting all of the poor people on the east side with crappy public transportation because they simply don't GO to the East side. Also, in suburbia PT is only for poor people. Don't even try to walk somewhere in Cheektowaga or Clarence, there isn't even sidewalks most places.

Really this is a fear of pepople in the

Great article STEEL. Hits the nail on the head. Moving back to Buffalo 4 years ago was such a great idea. I really believed that so much was going to happen. To date...not much.A few stores on Elmwood have shifted around, many closed, a couple of apartments went up, a few condo's popping up here and there. Other than the fact that the people here are wonderful, I'm gettin bored/fed up watching projects fall apart, go to court or take decades to materialize. Is it the politians? the "old guard"? the preservationists? Lack of industry/jobs? Please, tell me why this city just can not seem to pull it's act together! To date there still is not one "hot" area being focused on properly with which to work from and spider web off of. It all seems like a bit here and a bit there, or, hinging on what Basher or Bass Pro can do for this city [which is nadda to date after how many years?] Very disappointing I must say.

Steel, you must have realized by now that Gaustad and Damp are one and the same.

Dan, thanks for clarifying, that really explains it all. Tell me you are joking...!!!

So you are telling me there is a guy that lives in one of the nicest, most prosperous, vibrant cities in the world kicking back on his computer and dictating the problems of one of the last rust belt cities left to revitalize itself, without crtical first hand knowledge and life experience?

Then when the locals criticize the accuracy and quality of his articles, he becomes defensive as if he is were in in the pit everyday, scratching and clawing, with the hope that someday Buffalo will become a Chicago.

How can someone who lives in Chicago have any credibility, whatsoever, to what we go through on a daily basis in Buffalo............... and then have the nerve to argue with people about it.

This is actually comical.

Steel,

I have a better idea. Why don't you write for WNYMedia instead? - your will receive less criticism there. As a matter of fact, why don't you leave Buffalo, you may be happier. This way you will not have to be subjected to Buffalonians that have a different point of view.

The readers on this site share the same views as myself. More and more of them have come out of the wood work. I can't stop them. Anything that goes against the grain, you consider wrong.

Rising Damp has a much different writing style than I do. As a matter of fact, he/she has written skills that are far beyond your comprehension.

If you were smart, you would employ RisingDamp to take your spot. Its for the greater good.

Steel: you said "I found this postcard of the old Aud when it was fairly new." The Aud opened in October 14, 1940. The Skyway, shown in the background, opened to traffic in 1955, 15 years later.

Looks like Junkie was trying to say all U.S. Buffalonians should build up our futures like such as to find Detroit houses on a map.

And Viking - speaking of complexity, you've lost me too but thanks for trying to explain it to me. I'll take your word for it that there's advantages to our current trends the past few decades. Good thing too because I think it will continue a long time. Usually I get called negative for saying that, but this time I can say I'm agreeing with you.

JM I would argue that we probably have the private economy (look at the amount of economic activity that happens outside the city every day) Thousands, millions of dollars being spend made and transfered every day, but little of it was being spend in the city or in local shops bleeding the region of its own wealth for decades.

You can go down any major commercial strip and find job vacancy signs (not major jobs but jobs none the less) but they are not where the people who needs the jobs are or the people who need the jobs don't have the skills.

I would add that it was really politicians that really foiled the implementation of regional and city plans. That continues to this day. Does Byron really listen to his planning staff because I don't think so since every time the city has a decision to make the planning board can go one way but the rubber stamp falls the other.

Re. ArtSpace, I don't think govt can be blamed for lack of spin-off. How much can govt do? Sure it could buy buildings like that one on Michigan Ave, but then what to do with them and where does it end? There's 100s like that across the city - 'historic' in some sense (usually just means 'old', sometimes more) but with essentially zero real economic demand in 2007 Buffalo. Smart use of public money to maintain all those small buildings hoping for private sector demand when none seems forthcoming? No. What would be needed to save some of them is a big influx of people and private sector jobs. That would help draw more wealth into neighborhoods in ways public money just can't. Likely it's less difficult to save some buildings like that in Nashville or Raleigh because they're growing people, jobs, wealth.

Damp - Yes it was really three topics he had there, and the critiques mostly addressed the dot connecting some found to be a stretch.

{deleted off topic}

Silver bullets obviously haven't worked. But I think large (in size) projects have ruined downtown.

Nothing has every sprung up around the convention center, pilot field, HSBC, the Aud, Main Place mall, ect. That's what I fear most about Bass Pro. That's not just a Buffalo thing, that happens in many cities. They are to large and unwalkable, have you ever tried walking around one of these on a cold day.

I think we've benefited more from the smaller re-hab projects and small in fill.

Haha ur a jerk. But i guess i opened myself up for that one ha

Gaustad how does my name contradict my points I might rant but all of my points to attempt to provide some insight into making Buffalo better sorry if I bother you

thanks

Steel, putting words in my mouth only reveals your own ignorance. Your tactics are childish. I do not hate BRO, as a matter of fact, I enjoy it very much.

Why do you find it necessary to attack your readers? Moreover, why do you find it necessary to descriminate against people on this site?

Is writing on BRO your full time job in Chicago? Why do you have so much time on your hands that you are able to spend your day, while living in another cty, responding to lil ole me in Buffalo?

My value to the "conversation" is that an arm chair Buffalonian sitting in Chicago, writing for BRO, is simply not justified nor qualified to make such bold remarks.

Refer to RDamps post reagrding your inaccuracies or do I need to spell it out for you again? There have been a plethora of posts on this site crticizing you and your articles. I am now understanding the reasons why, BECUASE YOU DO NOT LIVE IN BUFFALO!

Perhaps you should move back to the town that occupies your days in Chicago. It may help your style.

lol if i could delete it i would haha i dunno my point was that detroits ratio is the only city higher than ours and that just shows how much this region has in common with that craphole and how far both of our regions need to go.

Interesting that waterfront redevelopment was on their minds even way back then. The progress since then takes your breath away. Why to you think the far reaching plans came to a screeching halt after the Aud? The War most certainly had something to do with it. The next major waterfront improvement waited until the Erie Basin Marina in the 70's, unless you include the Skyway and Thruway as waterfront improvements. Then there was the so called "waterfront" Hilton followed by waterfront village a suburban enclave in the city. Do you have anything on what they were thinking about doing with the waterfront at that time?

NewBuffalo - Your subjective opinion that businesses 'belong' downtown in the anachronistically-named Central Business District is clearly not shared by many companies and people who prefer the burbs.

If govt tried to force some companies to locate facilities downtown, many would simply skip WNY and put the facility in some other city and state (as too many do anyway). Geico and Citicorp are big recent examples who absolutely insisted on a burb location. It doesn't accomplish much good to deny or complain about that reality. Econ development agencies can and should try to lure companies to the city but it adds another obstacle to the big set of obstacles imposed by NY State's relatively high costs of business.

it will not work as long as it is seen as a stand-alone entity.

Um. Can we say Peace Bridge plaza expansion?

RD

You raise some interesting points on the ArtSpace conundrum. Thing is not too many people actually live around there anymore. Also gentrification is hardly a plague on the poor in Buffalo in the way it is in other cities. If anything the poor would probably benefit from some gentrification.

Narrow depiction? Perhaps it has not occurred to you that the Aud did not suddenly appear in 1940 but maybe took oh I don't know, a year and a half to build and another year or two to design or more. That would push its conception back into the depths of the depression. But why quibble. You made your point the Aud was not an economic development tool and this was not a slum and it was located next to long distance train stations because of its potential draw in NYC. Oh and Buffalo's economy was booming along in the depression. You see I do have something to learn from you and your friends. Elena should not be so hard on you.

So because I was so so far off on the purpose for building the Aud that makes my entire point that means what? Buffalo has shown a record of good follow through on big ticket projects. What is your point?

Comparing that original Aud photo to the current "improved" version, I'll bet it would have stood a better chance of surviving if the original E.B.Green design hadn't been screwed with.

Gaustad

By that statement you sound like you believe that things exist in either black and white. My posts are quite consistent. They point out unheralded assets of the city. people working to improve the city, and ways that I think the city is off course and needs correction. I have never attacked anyone on here ads far as I can recall.

I really don't know why you and your buddies spend so much time on BRO if you hate it and its purpose so

much. WNYMedia will give you a blog where you can say what every you want all day long. Don't you think it is odd that you spend your whole day on here for no other purpose than to hurl insults at people?

By the way what points did damp make?

Atwater,

Great find. Very interesting read

Dan,

We have our differences but on this I am sure we agree. Buffalo has tremendous untapped potential. The fact that it has been bound up so tightly is definitely a source of great frustration.

Gaustad,

Who is dictating problems. I am offering a subject for discussion. You choose to attack me and BRO rather than join in. And, if being defensive means pointing out the errors in your argument then I plead guilty. Do you have something to add to the conversation or will you continue to make this about me? Why do you spend so much of your day on here if you hate BRO so much?

Gaustad

What words did I put in your mouth?

Are you are uninterested in the subject of the conversation here?

What discrimination?

What inaccuracies? I think we have proven that the Aud was not located near long distance train stations to attract NYC residents to Canisius College basket ball games. If you havae more information as to the history of the Aud I would sincerely like to hear it.

What bold remarks? Are you saying that it is bold to note that Buffalo has shown poor follow through with mega projects. Is this basic assertion untrue? If you believe otherwise I think we can have an interesting conversation. Please fill us in. If you are only interested in talking about me then we are wasting our time.

Lol. I just meant that its stupid...A pathetic fact in which we are indeed beating detroit is the entire cost per new $100,000 home constructed in this region. Its two-for -one which means it costs us as a region $200,000 for every $100,000 home this is a sick figure. Detroit is just ahead of us at either three or slightly above our two marking. The major Suburban home developers want us to think that building these homes is good and not only that there is a demand for these homes. This needs to end this fact should be a wakeup call for us to enact legislation into an urban growth boundary so this wasteful development can stop. This is the only way the diverse and multiple factors for this stunning figure can be alleviated. The buffalo housing lobby has very deep pockets but who in teh ned is their wealth benefiting?

Opps, that wasn't quite the link - here it is (speeches and quotes from all Buffalo mayors through Masiello):

http://www.buffalonian.com/history/industry/mayors

LOOK!! a street -- I think that's MAIN STREET. I count 3 or 4 cars on the road.

Who said that Buffalo was good at follow through in the Depression? That is my point. It wasn't back then and it isn't now. Buffalo's failed leadership goes way back. The predicament Buffalo is in now was planted back in those depression days. Certainly there were slums back then in other parts of the city. The big public housing projects were all planned in the 40's and 50's . Talbert Mall. Grand daddy of all silver bullet failures was going to save the city by clearing out the slums. All it did was drive poverty in to the next neighborhood. I have no idea what all the factors were in siting the AUd at that location. I am sure one is that the land was cheap. Can you think of any others?

BTD

Which statements are contradicting? Also you should read your own posts before complaining about my punctuation. Are you interested in the subject matter or only about insulting me? Let's try to debate the actual topic. It is much more interesting.

Gaustad

For paragraph 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 see comment to BTD above

For paragraph 4 - Please do spell it out for me. Be more specific and I will do my best to answer. Which part of RD's post refutes what I have said. Also instead of standing behind him/her why don't you speak for yourself?

I have said this over and over so I apologize to those that have heard it before, but economic development must start with schools. The cities population will continue to age and will continue to decline until there is a significant change in the quality of city schools. It is a crucial factor not just for individuals when deciding where to reside, but also for business in deciding where to locate.

Small projects, Silverbullets and everything in between cannot build true momentum to righting Buffalo unless an attractive environment is built to facilitate growth.

To whoever from BRO took Betterthandetroits's (the troll) post off... thanks! I was just going to tell him to get a life and ask what the meaning was behind their stupid name

Vacant dangerous properties across from schools (newly rehabbed and old crumbling schools equally) should be very high on list for demolition or if feasible sale for cheap to a competent owner. If the hotel you're talking about was the Hyatt, clearly that was a mistake to ever subsidise construction of and we should learn from it. Now that it's here and still sucking our tax money instead of earning profit, not sure what to do about the decaying buildings next to it. Maybe cut NYS taxes a lot so the economy here grows a lot more than it has been.

So much for staying on topic and not attacking each other...carry on kids.

STEEL,

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agreed, when the city builds these things they usually clear out everything around them to make way for spin off development. In reality all they are doing is destroying the fabric of the city that would spawn that new development. People need cheap places to buy so they can have the capital left over to renovate and reinvent them. Artists especially follow this track If this building was seals and left for another year when artspace is really completed and buttoned up it is exactly the kind of place that some starving artist who wants to be near artspace could buy for a couple thousand and start to renovate himself. The aud probably failed because the neighborhood it was trying to spin off development into was destroyed after. I am sure planning for the skyway started just after the AUD was finished, I doubt government worked any faster then than today.

Silver bullet projects only work when there are places that people have to go through to get to the location. If you build an auditorium you need to put the main parking for it a couple blocks away. This generate the foot traffic to help support spin off. Walking across the street to park or even work through an enclosed bridge does nothing. no one walks past their car to go another couple blocks to a location.

Also look how alive, energetic and full main street looks with cars... ohh boy those were the days...

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I cant believe how great the Aud looked back then. They sure did a good job of uglying it up over the years. lol