Gaustad jsut reminded us all that while Buffalo may not have the best image it always gets compliments on how friendly its residents are ("city of good neighbors" anyone?) while NYC is known for extremely rude people. I would rather those people die than move to Buffalo as well.
Gaustad I hope you pay that premium rent to an obese woman who lives above you, has steakout delivered on an hourly basis and has them cater all 82 of her Sabres parties in which she invites over all her obese friends.
1. Thanks for the personal anecdote, George. It doesn't change the fact that Buffalo had little in common with Boston when it came to school desegregation, or the fact that Buffalo's response was held up as a model.
2. It also does nothing to alter the misleading premise that you share with GDC and gaustad, namely that NYC is tolerant and Buffalo isn't. In either city, you can surround yourself with tolerant people, or you can be subjected to the opinions of bigots.
1. Thanks Sally and reflip. I think we can dump the notion that Rochester is rehabbing any great number of their abandoned housing. But it does seem that they're doing much more than we are. By contrast, PUSH has been calling for the city to do 20 rehabs per year, eventually rising to 100.
2. GDC mentions the urban prairie on the east side as a bad thing, but is it really? The city has lost half its population, and large areas of the east side just aren't coming back anytime soon. Isn't it a good thing for those areas to become further depopulated, with the residents moving either to more viable parts of the east side or elsewhere in the city?
3. Developers are banking on pricey downtown lofts because there's little connection between cheap rentals and upscale condos. Different markets.
I'm not sure that making this list is really something to jump up and down about. I would expect that a city ranked consistently as one of the poorest in the nation would also have cheap rent. There is a reason that many cities are expensive to live in, people will still pay high prices to live in a nice city that has economic oppurtunities. I don't think that the landlords of Buffalo are just nice people that want to give people a break on their rent payments. They know that in a depressed city they can only get so much for their property. With all the abandoned houses in Buffalo, most people don't even need to make a rent payment.
Worry about bringing REAL jobs to the city instead of getting all squirelly about making some ridiculous list.
GDC --
1. Congratulations on living in NYC for 10 years! How clever!
2. Despite the picture you paint of NYC as a haven of acceptance, it has a long and documented history of racial tension and violence.
Agree with georged, though out-of-towners may see the rents here as "Cheap" many locals struggle to pay the rent. It's all about the cost of living, job status in an area that contributes to the rent costs.
I would have to agree with Andrew and add something to that-
1.) If you don't like downtown development, simply don't ever make plans to visit or purchase there.
2.) Obviously Buffalo is a big town/small city. Nobody has ever tried to say it's this hustle/bustle area that slams all day and night. The fact of the matter is however, if nobody ever develops or has the boldness to step up and rehab a building, ala the old Dulski Building, things will NEVER change.
Low rent hell, you get a house for free. Just pick one of the better vacant ones.
This is a symptom of decline, not health.
Some guy wrote in the New York Times how great his new $2800 market-rate apartment in Stuyvesant Town is because he's never had a dishwasher before. Can you imagine how foolish he'd feel if he came to Buffalo, a re-emerging great city that has so much to offer for much less than what he pays to live in a congested, overpriced city like New York? Young talent is getting priced out of NY at an alarming rate. They need to come to Buffalo and Buffalo needs to promote itself there in a big way.
From last month: "As of Friday, June 20, Uniland received over 500 calls in relation to the condos. After screening, only 75 of the 500 calls emerged as serious inquiries."
None have sold yet -- they aren't on the market until August according to the article. Apparently plenty of wealthy people have an interest in living downtown, despite your well-thought-out argument otherwise.
Rochester has about 13,000 vacant homes and they are rehabbing about 60 per year, hardly an effective solution. It is a feel good drop in the bucket that masks their real problem of a 21% vacancy rate just under our 22% rate.
Sally's defiinition of provincial is useful here--I found NYC to be the most provincial place I've lived--endlessly self-absorbed and limited by its own grids of class, language, culture and simple geography. It is not so much tolerant as it is too huge and too frantic to care about what other people are doing, where they came from, or what they look like. Having mixed ethnic restaurants is the simple product of being a huge "move-to" CityState; it's not a virtue. And since Buffalo has not been a "move-to" city in over 50 years, why are we even holding it up against leviathans like New York?
Anyone can feel "cosmopolitan" eating in an Ethiopian-German restaurant, but does anyone really care? When I see the workers in that restaurant socializing with the intelligentsia and professionals in the neighborhood, maybe I'll be impressed. Otherwsie, it's just food.
That's only because the media is New York centric. They are very provincial and think that if it does not happen in NY City then it cannot be important.
Rochester has about 13,000 vacant homes and they are rehabbing about 60 per year.
While we re-develope downtown and other areas west, The East Side continues to lose buildings and look more like a country side than a city, maby we can grow corn fields and raise cows and other animals on the east side as we did over 100+ years ago.
LOL, you are right, that is what it will eventually look like, countryside. The only animals being raised are rats, but some of them are as big as cows.
gausted - you have indded been a busy busy man - what with having personally spoken to most people in NYC. That's at least 4 million personal conversations.
Why does it matter what people in NYC think of Buffalo? I want Buffalo to prosper and grow because I live here and I like it, not to correct some supposed inferiority to bigger cities. How sad are people like gaustad?
I hate to be that guy here but no one is going to relocate to the east side any time soon. there is nothing out there, its depressing, ugly and sometimes scary and dangerous. the west side has potential because its closer to places like elmwood, allentown and the business district. plus its much smaller of an area to work with.
and georged... why do you care if developers are selling lofts are going for $1M downtown, they're selling. who wouldnt want to live 15 floors up with lake and skyline views, walk 5 minutes to work, be at the center of public transit, and with in walking distance of 100 restaurants, bars and cafes. not to mention a mansion comes with a lot of home improvements and manual labor, a condo downtown doesnt
I'm not sure that making this list is really something to jump up and down about. I would expect that a city ranked consistently as one of the poorest in the nation would also have cheap rent. There is a reason that many cities are expensive to live in, people will still pay high prices to live in a nice city that has economic oppurtunities. I don't think that the landlords of Buffalo are just nice people that want to give people a break on their rent payments. They know that in a depressed city they can only get so much for their property. With all the abandoned houses in Buffalo, most people don't even need to make a rent payment.
Worry about bringing REAL jobs to the city instead of getting all squirelly about making some ridiculous list.
1. Does anyone have info on what Rochester's doing? I've seen talk that they're focusing on rehab rather than demolition, but I find it hard to believe that they are rehabbing cheaply-made homes in the middle of the urban prairie.
2. At some point we have to accept that development isn't going to be coming to certain parts of the city, and start focusing efforts on those places that still have a shot. That means demolition in some places and rehab in others. Brown's commitment to large scale demolition of areas that are beyond hope seems good. It's the ability to pick out those areas to be saved that we haven't seen yet.
Third highest vacancy rate in the nation correlates exactly to low rent. The same hold true for Rochester which has the fifth highest vacancy rate in the country.
There have been a few posts today on different threads about jobs. I think it would be wise for us to realize that more and more of us will be able to earn a significant portion of our income online (or doing something that makes our location less important). We may not see employers coming to town that will hire 1000 people... but maybe we should be attempting to make it more attractive for out of town employers to hire Erie County residents.
For example, if Google (insert any company) hired ten new telecomputing employees during 2008, the state would wave some type of tax these employees (or employer) would normally have to pay. Perhaps one physical site could be made available for teleconferencing, once a month, by the out of town company.
We should be coming up with ways to pass along our reasonable cost of living to companies that are located elsewhere (not expect them to pull up roots and start over here). Some form of organized telecomuting... along with an incentive to do so, would seem like a starting point.
How very true! Even with the mutltitude of flats all over the city, they have amenities not found in other cities. They are spacious with high ceilings and good woodworking inside. And, they can be found readily in great neighborhoods. Not to mention the large apartment buildings that have real character inside and out! What the city has little of are huge complexes of standard, modern sterile apartments. Those are more often available in the burbs. And, perhaps it is the stagnant or declining population's unexpected consequence that demand is low enough to keep rents reasonable. Yes, more bang for your buck in Buffalo! It contributes to better quality of life issues oven overlooked. About time this positive aspect of life in Buffalo gets the recognition it deserves!
Colin, I agree with your comment above that New York City has a history of discrimination, too. (Where hasn't there been discrimination?) However, the major difference is that NYC discusses these issues openly. Newspapers report on the issues, galleries and museums present thought-provoking exhibitions regarding these topics. It's important to shine a light on discrimination, but Buffalo hides from it.
With most agreeing about why Buffalo has low rent and the complete mess that is the city's economy, why is it that developers are banking on downlofts that go as high as $1,000,000 to purchase? It is laughable really. $500,000 gets you a mansion in WNY, why buy a loft in a ghost town of a downtown for twice the price?
Its seems like a lot of people on this site get caught up in the hype of these sugar-coated stories and don't see the real picture. Without bringing high-paying jobs and companies into the area, none of this means a thing.
I'm staying away from the various stereotypical comments that have been posted above, but I will agree with GDC regarding Buffalo's intolerance based on sexual orientation, religion and race. (Is the recent Buffalo News story about the cross burning at a south Buffalo residence that surprising?) Buffalonians wrap themselves in the 'City of Good Neighbors' mantra, but discrimination is a remaining sad fact that few are still willing to recognize.
I'm hopeful for Buffalo's future in the long-term and I appreciate reading BRO stories about saved buildings, bicycle racks and wonderful little projects, but there are lingering negative attitudes in western New York that are disturbing and I'm surprised that, to this day, they remain locked away to avoid discussion.
Sonyactivision, trust me on this one, As someone who lives in NYC and here for the summer, I know most people from the Big Apple will not like it here in Buffalo. We Real New Yorkers are used to hustle and bustle, a 24/7 Subway and bus system, going out past midnight and always finding something to do besides drinking. We are used to classy Sushi Bars, Starbucks (some open 24/7) able to order a breakfast at 3 or 4 in the morning from a corner deli. Buffalo just doesn't compare and that is why many would rather pay the extra amount in rent in such a big city like NYC than for less in Buffalo. You truly get what you pay for, if you know what I mean.
Growing up in Buffalo it seemed that segregation existed in the city, even though it wasn't by law. Bars, restaurants, etc. only catered to one race, with little mixing of races. Neighborhoods like Lovejoy were more like 1950s Alabama than a northern city, extremely backwards. Buffalo was right there with cities like Boston that fought public school desegregation. Not only did I find NYC to be much more accepting, I know live in the Southeast and it is light years ahead of Buffalo as far as race relations. Buffalo is a very intolerant place when it comes to accepting different races, religion, etc.
People here are disturbed that there are still discriminatory attitudes in Buffalo? Open your damn eyes, it goes on everywhere in the U.S (and the world) and even in ...gasp...big cities. Lots of black athletes dread Boston because of its discrimination towards black people. Its hard to convince people to play football in Green Bay if they aren't white. Don't act like Buffalo is the only place these practices take place. (did you read about the noose at Columbia, which is in the oh so tolerant city of New York?)
Maybe you can 'strut your stuff' in NY because of the neighborhood you are in. You wouldn't walk through Kaisertown but would be more than accepted in Allentown. I wouldn't walk through Spanish Harlem at night in NYC as a white kid. The same rules apply everywhere.
Back on track, Buffalo should not only promote itself to NYC but make it easy for people to buy and inhabit houses in the city. It should be marketed as a hub to the East, North and Midwest.
What really needs to be done is to regionalize, but that's an argument for another day.
There are many reasons for the decline of the east side, but the lack of job opportunities for Buffalo's minority community is one certainly one reason. Businesses in Buffalo have always been behind in considering qualified non-white workers for employment (except in the larger manufacturing facilities). I would like to read current statistics to see if that pattern has improved.
I do think there is a generational change taking place -- thank the gods for young people -- and I expect that Buffalo will become more inclusive because, at the very least, it will have no choice. I look forward to it.
An old "friend" of mine, and me, had a beer bottle thrown from a car at us at 1st Ave and East 4th Street near a gay bar in NYC's East Village. The bottle smashed on the brick wall a few inches from the back of my head, and the people in the car yelled, "faggots" at us as it drove down the street. This was only a few years ago, so we're not talking ancient history here. I never categorized NYC as particularly intolerant because of what happened; I simply recognized that it happens everywhere.
1. NYC is a more cosmopolitan place than Buffalo. Granted.
2. That said, the pro-NYC crew here is making a false comparison. On the one side is some stereotype of a working class Buffalonian -- Sabres jersey, eating at steakout, etc. -- and on the other is NYC as a haven of urbane, cosmopolitan professionals. That's a straw man if I ever saw one. You can surround yourself with urbane people in Buffalo, and NYC is absolutely teeming with working class, poor, and underclass folks who don't give a crap about your sex in the city sensibilities.
3. The claim that Buffalo was "right there" with Boston in fighting school desegregation is demonstrably false. In fact, Buffalo has been used as a counterpoint to Boston in academic studies. Buffalo's response to desegregation under Gene Reville was a model for other cities.
GDC - you forgot the plethora or georgeous women, WITH STYLE, all over NYC that just melt your heart when they walk by.
I would most certainly pay a premium in rent not to be subjected to some of the obese women wearing Buffalo Sabres jersey, shoveling jim steak down there throat.
Most people in NYC have personally told me that would rather die than have to move to Buffalo.....I really noever thought it was that bad here, but just goes to show how bad our image is. It is up to the Mayor to re-market and change our image, which I feel he does a poor job of doing.
Hey Andrew, you know that these $1 million lofts have sold? I doubt it. You act like living in downtown Buffalo is like Manhattan!! Just the opposite, it is a ghost town 6 out of 7 days a week-"the city that always sleeps." Also the mere mention of Buffalo and public transportation is laughable! My point is that people get excited about things like this and it is like a silk hat on a pig. Nothing is going to save this city until jobs come in and the population doesn't keep falling. The 2010 census results will be frightening for this city. Really Buffalo is just a town within a mid-sized county.
georged,
The problem of segregation in bars happens in all cities. Go to Chicago. Hit a few bars on the main strip (Level might be a good one) and see how "Diverse" it is. Then go down to Weed St. (no joke thats the name of it) and hit a place called Jet.
SteveP hit it right on the head.
I think that NYC is very tolerant but it's not the promised land. Fortunately, Howard Beach and parts of Staten Island are probably the last bastions of real hardcore racism because all other areas have experienced an influx of different cultures. Tolerance is practiced every day in NYC because you encounter someone different than you every day -- it's a basic survival method. You can't exist in NYC without tolerance, but you can exist just fine in Buffalo without tolerance because cultures don't generally mix in the city except at the fringe. Tolerance leads to acceptance and common ground.
One of my tests for judging the integration of any city/region is by checking out the food. When you see such cuisines as Mexican-Chinese, Ethiopian-German, Chinese-Italian, etc., you quickly realize that different cultures are sharing their experiences. In Buffalo, there are different ethnic restaurants -- separate but not mixed.
And does anyone remember or read about the Buffalo Race Riots of '67. All happend in late June of that year because of tensions between African-Americans (particulary in the East Side), the Buffalo Police, lack of jobs, and the divided neighborhoods in this city. After police officers (all white) tried to stop a group of people from dancing in the street (black) sparked an almost week long hell of riots, burning down of buildings, looting, car tossings and even death and injury's. Look around the East Side today, wonder why Genesee Street is DEAD? Or the old commercial districts are DEAD? Well, just like in Detroite (after thier riot's-same year), you may blame this infamous part of our history as to why it is the way it is today and how little has changed since then. Then mayor, Sedita and others in politics promised hundreds of jobs to the African-American youths as a way to stop the madness, But where did these jobs all of suddenly come from? And did this community actually get to Work as promised by the city? I'm guessing no. Or this another piece of local history that nobody wants to discuss, because we would rather blame loss of industry jobs as to why the East Side looks the way it does and why people continue to leave this area, still don't feel welcomed in most parts of the city or the 'burbs'.
My family who has left the area becomes green with envy when they see what I can rent compared to the shoeboxes they pay thousands for.
(although you do get even more for your money when you own... unless my landlord is carrying something like 15% interest the rent on my unit alone covers her mortgage... which is why I'm working on buying right now.)
After living in NYC for ten years, I always found that people in NYC are way more outgoing and REAL compared to many in Buffalo. Yeah, some are friendly here but not accepting to many for dumb reasons like religion, sexual preference, race, etc. In NYC noone seems to give a f*&#@ what or who you are, it's your personality that counts. And for jobs, u MUST Have a degree to get anywhere, unlike this town where it's all about "who you know".
sonyactivision, yes MANHATTAN is for rich people,but you can still get a decent rate in the other boroughs in good neighborhoods that are way more vibrant than any neighborhood in Buffalo. Yes the old NYC edge is going away, but it's still vibrant, more opportunities, better transit system, more to do, better looking people, more OPTIONS, and smarter people.
Gaustad, I think just about EVERYONE in NYC has more style and looks better than the Buffalo natives. I had to get a new wardrobe just to 'FIT IN' to Buffalo's so I would'nt be starred at when I go out. Sorry, Buffalo but the grunge, baggy pants, and dirty looking clothes are not working for ya. And people in NYC don't want to live anywhere that is considered Burbs or Small City. They might consider L.A. or Chicago, but certainly not a small town like Buffalo.
Try being gay in Buffalo, open and walking around DOWNTOWN on a nice sunny afternoon only to be called "Fag" and "homo" by Complete strangers and then do the same in NYC and you feel more confortable, can strut your stuff and feel good about yourself. Here in good ol' Buffalo, you can not. This is why I'm not staying in Buffalo. gave it a try again, but with the small minded attitudes that still make it's presense known around here, is definitely keeping me away.
I think PaulBuffalo made a really valid point about the racial problems in Buffalo. What is left of the workforce, especially in what are viewed as professional type jobs, has very backward hring practices towards non-whites. Many minorities flee Buffalo to other northern cities like NY or Boston, as well as more progressive cities down south to find jobs and never look back.
As far as Steve P's comment about Boston, that is history. Look at this year's celtic team makeup compared to the larry Bird era. Not the same Boston of the Bill Russell era and Tom Yawkey era.
EricOak, my simple point regarding food choices is that it's a good indicator of cultural diversity. It ain't exclusive to a NYC and this has nothing to do with being cosmopolitan. Regarding tolerance, I would be only too glad if Buffalo were too frantic to care about what people look like.
Steve, take a trip to NYC and then comment about it. And as far as Allentown being so accepted is still not true. People still drive and walk through yelling out hated words towards gay people in that neighborhood. The mentality here is very 'old school southern'.
Oh and Steve as for the noose at Columbia, At least THAT Made National news. I'm sure the cross burning in South Buffalo or other discriminating incidents in this town will NEVER make it past the local media.
And even just this week a mixed couple in Buffalo get a burning cross put on thier front yard. Have times really changed here?
It's all about supply and demand.
High demand for NYC apartments = high rent. Little demand for Buffalo aptartments = low rent.
There are exceptions, desireable neighborhoods in Buffalo where the demand is higher, and those parts of the city command higher rents. I used to live and work in the Bronx, and believe me, there are cheap places to live in NYC...you just probably wouldn't want to live there (unless you're one of those NYC residents who'd rather take their chances with the gangs and squatters than to ever be caught dead in the Elmwood Village).
Thank you, Sally.
Rochester, by the way, is also going to demolish homes as part of their strategy. But they are taking a comprehensive approach to reinvestment. How it will work remains to be seen, since they haven't implemented it yet. I have no idea what the "big picture" strategy is in Buffalo. The BN article today leads us to believe there is none. I simply cannot believe that is true.
Colin,
Go to the City of Rochester (dot) gov website and scroll down to the "Your New Home" Icon in roughly the middle of the page. This is not the City's comprehensive strategy by any means, but I think it is what people are talking about.
A draft statement of the City's new housing policy can be found just above that in "Neighborhoods and Houses."
Let's stop bitching and step up to the plate. Start a business, do someting worthwhile...believe..... Has anyone noticed the difference in the last give few years and the price of real estate...IT IS ALL BELIEF. People have boldness. Eliminate more of the beauracracy and see what happens.... We are getting there.
Typical NYC outlook = provincial as in # 3 below
Main Entry: 1pro·vin·cial Pronunciation: \prə-ˈvin(t)-shəl\ Function: noun Etymology: in sense 1, from Middle English, from Anglo-French or Medieval Latin; Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin provincialis, from provincia ecclesiastical province; in other senses, from Latin provincialis, from provincia province Date: 14th century 1: the superior of a province of a Roman Catholic religious order 2: one living in or coming from a province 3: a person of local or restricted interests or outlook
Hey Colin,
There was plenty of protest going on in Buffalo about school segration, particularly in South Buffalo and Lovejoy. Go ask someone who attended my old school, PS 43. Teachers had to lineup and protect black students on their first day of class. Not exactly Little Rock, but it was heated. Of course this didn't make the national press like Boston, but there was plenty of hatred here in the City of Good Neighbors (what a joke.)
Are we seriously arguing that Buffalo is more segregated than NYC or any other place because of race riots 40 years ago? Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't their racial tensions in many parts of the country at that time? Your trying to tell us that Buffalo hasn't changed much in 40 years? And that the opinions expressed here are based on race relations in the 60's? I'm sorry but every city in America faces these problems. We are not unique.
Andrew - thanks for the chuckle. I never realized that people who can afford million dollar condos are into mass transit. You're a hoot.
While we re-develope downtown and other areas west, The East Side continues to lose buildings and look more like a country side than a city, maby we can grow corn fields and raise cows and other animals on the east side as we did over 100+ years ago.
Colin: thank you for saying what i was going to say.
Georged: there are restaurants open almost every night on chippewa. and i was including allentown in my walking distance statement... 10 minutes.
While we re-develope downtown and other areas west, The East Side continues to lose buildings and look more like a country side than a city, maby we can grow corn fields and raise cows and other animals on the east side as we did over 100+ years ago.
At least Rochester has a plan to FIX most of thier abandoned houses unlike our city which chooses to DEMOLISH them all with out any plan to re-develope the lots afterwards. Seems like Byron Brown is going back to the old way of thinking "Just tear it all down today and worry about it later or just let a developer take over the lots"....Um isn't this what we did for years in the downtown core? Still waiting for development to happen on thosse empty lots along Main Street, Ellicott, S.Division, N.Division, Broadway, and so on and on.
Gaustad and GDC are right on the ball. As a resident of NYC for five years the only people that are moving from there to Buffalo are those that couldn't make it in NY or want to be back with family.
The bottom line is that cheap rent is not driving anyone in to moving to Buffalo. There is a big reason why the rent is cheap. Maybe bring in some jobs and you can force people to move to Buffalo, but there isn't anyone that is not from Buffalo that is going to be enticed to move there unless they have a big salary awaiting them. The city needs to concentrate on keeping people from moving out that already live in Buffalo, and quality jobs are the only way. Cheap rent, friendly people, downtown lofts blah, blah isn't going to work.
Sorry guys, GDC, Gaustad, et al. I have friends in NYC who feel like it has no future. They love it but they see all the real character drain away as greedy landlords raise rents to such ridiculous levels that only the huge national chains can afford those leases. They see classy, upscale steel and glass condo towers full of "euros" and "petrobrats" crowding out the skies and leaving the middle class that gave the city its richness and diversity in the dust. They fear they won't be able to survive in a world of 20% rent hikes and subway shutdowns. I love New York City too and I remember fondly how unique and vibrant it used to be. But that is changing and unless you're a millionaire, can you really enjoy any of it? They look at more progressive places like Portland and Seattle and wonder why New York is so behind. Buffalo is on the cusp of so many great things. This is the ground floor and anyone from NYC who wants that old feeling again should come to Buffalo and contribute to its re-awakening. The doors are closing and locking in New York. Buffalo is wide open...anything you want it to be.
Most people from NYC would not want to live anywhere except NYC. That was my experience when I lived there. The same is almost true for Boston and Chicago.
I can tell you first hand that there are more ugly people in NYC than anywhere else on earth, physically, mentally, and emotionally. Women and men in NYC were generally shallow, selfish, greedy, and status driven to a point of becoming a neuroses. I think Buffalo may be at the opposite extreme, but at least people are somewhat down to earth here.
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