Very interesting,,, I wish our city the best on whatever the outcome may hold. Whether or not we get a fully operational casino built in downtown is anybody's guess right now, but I personally would love to see it built!
Very interesting,,, I wish our city the best on whatever the outcome may hold. Whether or not we get a fully operational casino built in downtown is anybody's guess right now, but I personally would love to see it built!
"The lawsuit was brought against the Senecas by Citizens for a Better Buffalo in reference to the Buffalo Creek Casino on Michigan Avenue and Perry Street in the Cobblestone District."
This is a really bad error. The lawsuit was brought against the Federal Government for allowing gaming on the land. It was not brought against the Senecas. The Senecas are not party to the lawsuit or the decision.
Blair, Thanks for the catch as always. Whatever I did to rework that sentence originally definitely skewed the message.
This Seneca is of the opinion that judicial activist shitheads like Skretney should be recalled immediately. Of course the lawsuit brought upon by the cultural elite babysitters of WNY and California attorney Dianne Bennet is against the Senecas. Their high priced Wendt foundation attorneys just found a way to word it a unique way to hide the fact this has ALWAYS been about the war on the Nation.
Lawrence Tribe? Well, they certainly have the money for one of the best attorneys in the country.
They have no reason not to go ahead. 1) NYS hasnt enforced any laws with regard to the Senecas or any indian tribe. Not tabacco tax, not gas tax, etc 2) Even if they manage to stop gambling the Senecas could still make money putting all the other hotels downtown out of business and their shows and theaters could do the same with private sector culturals 3) and let the city/county try to collect property taxes on those acres without gambling
as they said...they will never give up the land and they will never pay taxes on it either
this is a precursur of what buffalo and erie county will be experiencing when the compact says the senecas dont have to share slot money anymore.
I respect the Seneca Nation. They are a class act. They are Committed to Western New York and always have been. They will always be here. That can't be said for the small group of people that are standing in their way. Will they be here years down the road? I doubt it. Joel Rose will retire from UB and probably move out of state while collecting his pension.
GO SENECAS!
I always thought that as long as it was Indian Terriority, that Gambling was allowed. I am starting to see why the Seneca's would of rather invested in Cheektowaga than Buffalo, I never heard of "Citizens for a better Cheecktowaga". I hope the Senecas WIN this battle as they deserve it. This state and country has been messing with Native Americans' ever since the first settler arrived. Time to stop all this B.S. and let the Seneca's run thier business.
Looks to me like most commenters have never lived in a community after Indian Gaming has become established. I could enumerate the negatives, but we have all heard them before. The overall outcome is a big negative for the community, a major windfall for the tribe. But, by all means, make them the friends of your organizations! They may throw very publicized peanuts in your direction.
The concept of 'sovereignty' is a tortured one in this context, isn't it? At least in layman's terms, the idea of sovereignty is different than whatever the Senecas enjoy. Consider:
If someone commits a murder on native land, it's not the tribal elders who meet out justice. No, the NYS troopers will come in and investigate and arrest suspects if warranted. It's NYS courts which administer justice, not native courts.
And there's no smoking of peace pipes on native land, at least if the burnables are anything illegal in the rest of the country. Smoking pot is no more legal in Seneca territory as it is elsewhere. That's a choice not of the native populations, but the majority population. The Supreme Court ruled that a southwest tribe which used psychedelic mushrooms as part of its religious ceremonies was bound by the federal proscriptions on these plant. Doesn't sound much like 'sovereign reign', does it?
And you can't train terrorists on native land. Nope, that gets ixnayed by the feds. Our feds, not theirs.
So what exactly does 'sovereignty' mean, in the context of the Native Americans?
In the context of the casino land, sovereignty seems to have meant that the Senecas would be allowed to operate a gambling casino. but not anything else objectionable to the majority population (drug use, prostitution, etc.). In fact, the very depth and breadth of the compact between NY and the Senecas with regard to gambling seems to indicate anything BUT sovereignty on the part of the Senecas. What they would and would not be allowed to do with the land was very specifically addressed by the compact. That doesn't exactly sound like 'sovereignty', at least not as this lay person usually interprets the term.
I also love these native Americans. They know how to get things done. I hope they keep building the casino and one day the 22 story hotel will rise as a slap in the face to all who stood in the way of progress.
Lets see the Feds tell the natives what to do on sovereign land. LOLOLOL I am so sick of government and red tape and all the bullcrap.
The last thing we need in Buffalo is a tax exempt native American gambling casino. I think the federal ruling was very wise and legally sound. I do disagree with the Senecas so-called sovereignty rights to that downtown parcel. But that unfortunately is part of the court ruling. Go Senecas I say wrong answer. They have absolutely no interest in the economy and well being of Buffalo and WNY. They even don't care about their own people living in crushing poverty on their southern tier reservations. Casino gambling was supposed to help eradicate the poverty among the Seneca people, instead it has only made a tiny minority of the Senecas sinfully rich at the expense of their own people and that is a terrible disgrace.
more like "citizens for a depressed buffalo" these idiots should be thrown out of this town. the senecas are a class act unlike the losers standing in there way. GO SENECAS......
The Senecas are not a class act. The Seneca nation government is corrupt probably even worse then our corrupt politicians. Its been said many times that when an election is held on Seneca Territory that there is all kinds of fraud and brutality in the election process. If anyone that needs to be run out of town it is these idiot casino proponents who keep buying the fairy tale bullshit that casino gambling will help a depressed economy when the total opposite is true. Also some of our idiot politicians that fell for this snake oil bullshit like former mayor Tony Masiello, that brain-dead idiot. Twelve years of Masiello as mayor and what has happened to Buffalo? more serious decline and a state control board. That is some kind of legacy.
like the casino or not you have to love the confidence this man/ group of people has. he pretty much just said "screw you guys... we're building a casino" not many other people in this town have the cajones to do something like that!!
for the record i'm neutral on the casino.
may buffalo have the best possible outcome, whatever it is
i was surprised to see how in favor of this area hotels and restaurants are....i think it helps prove that theres no reason to think this would harm buffalo
http://www.wivb.com/global/story.asp?s=8619187
For all of you saying the 1000 of jobs will be paid out of our own pockets. That is how business works!!! When you patronize a business they are able to earn money for themselves and pay their employees. If that is a reason for a business not to open then all business in WNY should close... because they take our money!
I rather have my expendable money go to pay wages for one of those 1000 jobs than to 1000 people on welfare.
For everyone saying that the casino would take way from other local hotels and restaurants. What is this... communism? Has anyone ever heard of competition? That is by far the dumbest argument I heard so far. The casino hotel would be good because it would force everyone to compete.. leading to better products and better prices. MORE OPTIONS = BETTER FOR CONSUMERS. Look at the hotels recently undergoing renovations (some like the Hyatt with our own money but I guess that doesn't matter since they are not the Senecas).
If it was for the 12 Citizens for a Dumber Buffalo we would have one hotel and one restaurant.... god forbid someone else would like to offer the same product! Especially if we have to knock down an ugly empty building that was built 100 years ago. If these people found dog crap from 1880 they would want to designate the area a historic site. Stop telling the rest of us what is best for us. If you don't wan to gamble DO'T GO TO THE CASINOS!
I need to do more research on the idea of "sovereignty" myself. Why does their sovereignty extend to new land that they buy? Try this thought experiment: why don't they just buy all of the vacant properties the Buffalo News has been talking about lately until they own 51% of the city, put their tribe members on the city council and then steamroll their ideas into law?
No one is against the Senecas - No one is against Native Americans -I appreciate the dedication with which the Senecas do things - it's the GAMBLING we don't want (or need).
Yup, it's a "war on the nation." The Network of Religious Communities? Big fans of genocide. The League of Women Voters? Violent fanatics.
Stupid.
now we see the fruits of liberals....
another victimized minority wanting special privileges to exploit monetary gain for themselves
the senecas are like vd, now that they own the land in downtown buffalo...they said it with their own mouth....they will never sell and they will never leave....
and of course under that was....we will never pay taxes...any kind of taxes (property, sales, etc)
and of course under that was...we are above the law...our sovereignty allows us special privileges...others dont...
this deal needs to be permanently re-negotiated or cancelled....that revenue sharing from slots needs to include video slots and be permanent revenue sharing.
I do not understand this. I do understand that Buffalo needs the jobs. I recognize that. I would never, personally step foot into a casino of any kind, do not like them and the odds are stacked against anyone who does.
I do unerstqand the sovereign status the tribes all over the country deserve and rightfully so. I do understand that the right to land can be quite controversial.
What baffles me about this ruling is the fact that this judge based his ruling on "gamlbling is illegal in New York State". Is this man blind or perhaps he has never been to a convenience store. Gambling is very much alive and well in New York State, when if benifits New York State. I do not play the lottery, I am taxed enough but this ruling should and will be challenged on hypocracy. If gambling is illeagal, it is illeagal and dismantle the Lottery. Until then, the Seneca's should have the right to do whatever they want on their court awarded land.
Albany, Buffalo and Erie County can not, nor should not, have it both ways.
Seems logical to me. Am I nuts?
I don't know too much about the deal the Seneca's got but it's been done so we all need to move on to other things. Some of the arguments against the casino are a little tired...like it's going to run all the downtown bars and restuarants out of business. Most of the people that support these downtown bars and restaurants own cars. There is a casino in Niagara Falls, NY that is 5 years old (or so). Why is everyone not simply going to this casino?
It is unfortunate that Buffalo sunk to the point where we wanted to bring a casino downtown. However, this is not a Doomsday scenario if the Senecas build what they say they will. They should have negotiated a better deal on the revenue sharing but otherwise this is just something else going on. No one can say with certainty at this point, but based on the experience of Niagara Falls and Detroit my 'bet' is it ends up being about a Net 0 for Buffalo. So I say forget the Casino and let's see what else can we look at to improve the city.
buffaloweiner: "The Senecas are like vd."
So in your racist troll world, the Seneca Nation has no right to operate a business because "they will never sell and they will never leave". Why don't you leave? Really. You made your point about how much you hate this casino and how much you hate the Senecas. So do us all a favor and do sell your land and do leave.
Auburner - it gets a bit tricky, but as far as I can tell, it comes back to Congress' 1988 ndian Gaming Regulatory Act, which split types of gambling into three classes - Class III being the highest, most regulated and the type that is being discussed here. Among other restrictions, Class III gambing is only allowed if "the gaming is located in a state that permits such gaming;" and "the gaming is conducted in conformance with a 'tribal-state compact' that regulates such gaming."
New York State and the Seneca Nation executed an agreement that the SNI would be allowed to build and operate three Class III facilities in New York State. There's your compact.
BUT (and here's the rub) The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act "expressly prohibits gaming on land “acquired by the Secretary in trust for the benefit of an Indian tribe after October 17, 1988 unless a defined statutory exception applies." (I'm quoting from Judge Skretny's decision here.)
Basically, the court found that none of the exceptions applied.
"So I say forget the Casino and let's see what else can we look at to improve the city. "
Billo,
Let's call Basa, he can bail us out... Hate to say I told you so, but...
Auburner - it gets a bit tricky, but as far as I can tell, it comes back to Congress' 1988 Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, which split types of gambling into three classes - Class III being the highest, most regulated and the type that is being discussed here. Among other restrictions, Class III gambing is only allowed if "the gaming is located in a state that permits such gaming;" and "the gaming is conducted in conformance with a 'tribal-state compact' that regulates such gaming."
New York State and the Seneca Nation executed an agreement that the SNI would be allowed to build and operate three Class III facilities in New York State. There's your compact.
BUT (and here's the rub) The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act "expressly prohibits gaming on land “acquired by the Secretary in trust for the benefit of an Indian tribe after October 17, 1988 unless a defined statutory exception applies." (I'm quoting from Judge Skretny's decision here.)
Basically, the court found that none of the exceptions applied.
Thank you Wit,
Great research but I still stand that it was judicated that "gambling is illegal in NY State". It clearly is not. If we deny the ability of the Senecas to operate on that premiss, we are hypocritical.
Trust me, I am well aware of the Aquinna's trying to land a casino in New Bedford and yes, they were hypocrital in that attempt, being that they did not want to litter their land on Martha's Vineyard with a casino.
I fully recognize a double standard when I see one. Again, I have no dog in this fight but when I see injustice and speak out for it. Government hypocracy is what it is. Either gambling is illegal, call it illegal but dismantle the lottery (which, by the way preys on the poorest and contributes to everyone/ NY Times google News will show you).
Wit, you are obviously more versed in this than I, as I only see something that does not seem right. I have lived my life trying to "right wrongs" when I see them. If it looks fishy, smells fishy, it is probably pretty damn fishy.
Again, NY State, Albany, Buffalo, Erie County should not live by a double standard...
The Seneca Gambling Corporation is going to create 5000 new jobs in WNY for lawyers.
Let's see how many lawyers kick a judges ass in court. Let's see who is in charge of interpreting U.S. law the Seneca Gambling Corporation or U.S. judges?
How many WNY churches have to be robbed to pay those high hourly fees.
I see so much emotion amongst the pro-casino crowd. You are being blinded by numbers. Be logical. Casinos are NOT good, healthy development. I don't understand what is so hard to understand about that.
Also, about the Senecas being a "class act." I do like poker, but lets not be deluded here. If gambling was totally legal in NYS I guarantee you I would have no problem getting a giant loan from any bank to open the first casino in the second poorest city in the USA. If the senecas want legitimacy they can enter a business where there is actual RISK involved. Gambling is not one of them.
A few thoughts for all pro-casino advocates:
1. When then-Governor Pataki and the NYS legislature approved a compact with the Seneca Nation to operate 3 casinos, they did an end run around the NYS Constitution. It was illegal. They compounded the illegality by making a horrible business deal, allowing the Seneca's to keep 75% of the profits, and paying the state the remaining 25%. (The state then returns 25% of its share – 6.25% - to the host community.) Put together a “Request for Proposals from Prospective Casino Operators”. Every proposal will be better than the current deal.
2. The federal government, through the Department of the Interior (DOI), National Indian Gaming Commission (NIGC), made a decision to approve a Class III gaming license. The court found the decision arbitrary, capricious, and wrong. The judge asked the NIGC to re-evaluate its decision over a year ago and they merely rubber-stamped it. In the judge’s words, the NIGC decision “is at odds with the text of four successive congressional acts relating to SNI (Seneca Nation) leasing, a significant body of decisional authority relative to those four acts, and the DOI’s own stated objections to the SNSA (Seneca Nation Settlement Act). In other words, (it is) contrary to more than a century of law and agency action.” The NIGC position – “we’re the feds, and if we make a decision to allow Class III casino gambling on City of Buffalo land we’ve determined to be gaming eligible, who the hell are you citizens to tell us that you disagree?”
3. The Seneca Nation has repeated stated that it doesn’t have to meet with anyone or comply with any state or federal laws, including those relating to construction safety or environmental protection. Thanks to the enormous profits they are making from their 3 casinos (the Niagara Falls casino is very likely illegal, but since it was never challenged, it will likely continue to operate), they are a financial steamroller, and they will roll over anyone and everyone to build and operate the Buffalo Creek Casino – not because it’s good for Buffalo, but because it essentially allows them to print money. The only reason the Nation will be somewhat careful in what it says is because it wants the DOI and the NIGC to appeal the decision.
4. The City of Buffalo has travelled the road of appeasement – “We can’t fight the Seneca's, so we’ll negotiate our own compact with them, to get a little nicer design, a higher percentage of city residents getting the casino jobs.” It’s an abdication of leadership on the part of the city.
As has been previously stated, if you want casino gambling in the state, change the law. Doing it this way is the worst possible way to create real benefit for the city or the region. But that’s not my point. Instead, I have a question: What are the odds that a group of citizens could take on their local government, state government, federal government and the Seneca Nation of Indians, and win a historic victory? I’ll wager that you have a better chance of winning a million dollars in a Seneca casino.
I'm in favor of the casino, but I'd hardly consider myself a 'pro-casino advocate'. Those of us for the casino are less interested in the minutiae that most of the anti-casino crowd seems to be mired in. It's a good number of jobs, it's a small part of improving the water front, improving the skyline, and giving relatives in from out of town another option for something to do downtown. Is it perfect? no. Do we understand the issues involved with gambling? yes. All totalled, it's a net gain for the city.
Why would it take 127 pages to say "you can do that?" Seems like the Wendt Foundation really pissed away their (of course not theirs, you know, some dead white guy's) money which surely is a violation of the charter of that foundation.
While I would love to see a nice new high rise hotel and entertainment/ gaming facility downtown, along with the $333 million or so investment, I have a problem with granting a major, monopolistic corporation tax free status to operate a casino, hotel, restaurants, retail, convention facilities, parking, and whatever else they want, while the City is only going to get $7 million a year from it. We're not just talking about gambling, its everything else tax free that give this facility an unfair advantage over competing businesses.
Buffalo doesn't need a third of a $ Billion investment, 1100 jobs, and a beautiful complex drawing tourists from all over the country - all in an area that is now an abandoned industrial wasteland.
A casino will be the ruination of the city. Oh wait. . . .
How come everyone has two complete opposite views of the casino. Most rational people know that there's no 1 business that will save Downtown Buffalo, but rather a collective mix housing, attractions, green space, resturants, shops, etc. I'm for the Casino, I don't gamble, yet I understand the concerns of it's opponents, (although I think they are minor). Jobs and economis aside, lets just take a look as something really basic. Wouldn't a gaming complex look beautiful downtown? Have any of you anti-casino people actually seen the plans. Look how enjoyable something as simple as the commerical slip has been. Didn't you feel proud that after all these years Buffalo did something nice?
Just a though maybe another project in the future could be something family friendly like the Navy Pier. Instead of lawsuits, maybe people could invest their money instead.
http://www.navypier.com/
Only $7 million? I know city government isn't too efficient, but even they should be able to do something with $7 million a year. Hell, sell the income stream to Wall Street and take a $90 million lump sum.
I can go online and buy almost anything tax free.
To operate at that location, some incentive is needed, otherwise we'd have other corporations investing $333 million on that site. You make it sound like the casino might upset the apple cart, and that would be a big problem, well, it seems to me like upsetting the apple cart might be just what the city needs.
WoodenShoe, do you really think a casino in Buffalo, NY would have attracted people from all over the country? I could just hear families all over the country planning their vacations. "Hey, they just built one of those crappy Indian casinos in Buffalo, NY-let's spend a week there this summer! There is nothing else there, but they have a casino! Let's see, there is no direct flight there, because the airport sucks, but we will still go!!"
The only people that would have been gambling there would have been Erie County residents and a few other regional visitors. The only people that would have benefited would have been the Senecas.
If anyone thinks that a casino will be good for downtown, you got to be smoking something. Only in buffalo there is a mentality to accept anything lower and not strive for anything higher.
Casnios destroy economies. Plain and simple. They don't attract any businesses, they keep them away.
I don't mind gambling, but Casinos that dont' contribute ANY tax money to the state are AWFUL.
Buffalo dodged a bullet people! Do your really want the same thing to happen to Niagra Falls? That place is basically dead.
westbrook...what taxes were being collected on that vacant parcel for the last couple of decades? Show me the economic development going on with this parcel prior to the Seneca's coming along? It might not be tax money, but are the Seneca's not turning over a portion of the revenues to the state and city?
Construction continues, the temporary casino continues to operate and in 2010, the new casino will open. It is far from dead.
I love this
"Buffalo dodged a bullet people! Do your really want the same thing to happen to Niagra Falls? That place is basically dead"
Niagara Falls has been dead for a while, in fact the only nice thing besides Goat Island is in fact the CASINO!
MAYBE I'M WRONG...
But didn't the Seneca's already buy this land with the assumption of building a casino and NOW they turn around and tell them that they can't. I wouldn't be suprised if the Senecas packed they bags and went elsewher. Why should they or anyone put up with all this BS!!!!
How funny would it be if they kept building, got it pretty much done, and the final decision ended up being "no casino." What do you think they would use the building for then?
How funny would it be if they kept building, got it pretty much done, and the final decision ended up being "no casino." What do you think they would use the building for then?
How funny would it be if they kept building, got it pretty much done, and the final decision ended up being "no casino." What do you think they would use the building for then?
it will probably be used for another drug store, unemployment office, planned parenthood or welfare office, as these seem to prosper VERY well around here!!!
My thoughts are I would like to see a casino built. If a casino is not built they should still build a hotel as it provides jobs, convention center for performances, and have to pay taxes. I may be wrong and most likely am so don't be brutal in the response please. haha but their sovereign land was land they currently have near salamanca right? Sounds reasonable, but I don't think it covers all land that they buy or they could keep buying portions of the state until all of upstate is sovereign "separate country" native American land. Does my perception of this make sense to anyone or am I off lol? maybe this is the reason why the judge said no to the land in buffalo as being sovereign. Either way I would like to seem something nice come from all of this as I'm sure everyone on BR does as well.
Mr. Frank Parlato is putting slots in his building in Niagara Falls. Let's see if the government let's him COMPETE with the Seneca monopoly.
Jolopy,
I am confused by this also. Are Indian tribes around the U.S. able to increase the size of their sovereign lands simply through land purchases? This seems illogical to me.
BenFranklin - does it trouble you that so many of the pro-casino comments are so completely uninformed? The reason so many people are against this casino is that there is no "net gain for the city." The 1000 jobs will be dwarfed by the number of jobs lost in other hotels and restaurants. That's why so many business people, including Tom Golisano, are opposed to this casino. He's going to be a billionaire whether the casino operates or not. But he knows it will hurt Buffalo, and that's why he decided to speak out.
And the decision of the US District Court is a final decision, unless it's appealed. The defendants (DOI & NIGC) will have to try and convince the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in NYC that the decision of the District Court was made in error, and must be overturned. Given the depth and breadth of the reasoning in the decision, I don't see how that will happen. And an appeal to the US Supreme Court is an even longer shot. But I won't be surprised if the Seneca's try and convince the NIGC to issue a new Class III license on the basis that it meets a different exception to the prohibition against Indian gaming on non-tribal land.
The more desperate a community is for development, the more likely it is for people to drink the sand, thinking it's water. But we have real opportunity for significant future development because we have real water. This casino is not a piece of the puzzle, a small part of improving the waterfront, or another entertainment option. This is a trojan horse. And we have only our city, state and federal governments to thank for building it, and inviting the Seneca's to get inside.
If there will be a net loss in jobs in Erie County if a casino is built how do you explain the fact that Niagara County has 3,500 more people employed now than before the casino was opened? And this is despite the fact that there have been major job reductions at Delphi during the same time span.
Source: http://www.labor.state.ny.us
bc71: The native americans cannot increase their sovereign territory simply by purchasing land. There are many hoops that they must go through for the land to be considered sovereign, that is why the Seneca Golf Course land in Lewiston is not sovereign nor is their recent Buffalo purchase that they are using for temporary office space.
Jalopy:
You are confused because as usual ECB did a VERY POOR reporting job. She is incorrect when she tates that the Seneca's meremly have title to the land. The ruling and it was reported EVERYWHERE is that the judge rules that the land is indeed sovereign territory.
If the Senecas had to pay taxes and obey various other laws like everyone else, the casino wouldn't be so bad. Because they get play by different rules, they can make more money than the competition (or not even have competition) while keeping prices low. Sure, this sounds great -- cheap entertainment, lodging, food, etc. for us, right? And the 1000 jobs with benefits sound great, too. BUT how are the Senecas able to do this? Why do they *want* to do this? They aren't being generous -- this casino will make a ton of money for them, with very little actually coming back into the community. It will mostly make a bunch of rich people even richer -- without even taxing them.
Tax laws and the like are in place for a reason, and everyone else has to follow them. Red tape does slow down development, but it can be overcome legally without finding loopholes and exceptions. Buffalo needs slow and steady development, not a mega-project that goes forward quickly because it is above the law.
By the way, has anyone done any kind of financial analysis that shows exactly how much money would go to NYS and Buffalo under the current deal, compared to the amount that would go to NYS and Buffalo if there was no "deal" but gambling were allowed and it was just another business following tax law, etc.? I'm really curious.
I'll do some quick math:
Room occupancy at hotels in downtown Buffalo is at about 85%. So with a 200 room hotel, 170 rooms would be occupied every day of the year; that means 62,050 room nights. Let's say the average room rate is $150. (I believe it is higher at the Hampton Inn on Chippewa). That's a yearly gross of $9.3 million. The county and city share of the sales tax from the room revenue from hotel rooms alone (4.75%) would be $442,000. Plus the bed tax, which I believe is 10%, adds close to $1 million additional income. So on the hotel taxes alone, which the Seneca casino would be exempt from, that is close to $1.5 million. All of the eating and entertainment and gambling would also be tax free, and the casino can undercut local restaurants because their restaurants can be looked at as a loss leader. All they want to do is give people an incentive to walk in the door, because a majority of the people who walk in the door will drop money in the machines or at the table.
Buffalo estimates that its share of the 25% of the 25% of the slot revenue will be $6 to $7 million a year. And other hotels, restaurants and entertainment venues will suffer because they cannot compete with running a restaurant or a nightclub as a loss leader. And after 15 years of operations, NY State and the City of Buffalo get nothing. Not even 25% of 25%.
Does that make any sense to you birdbrain casino supporters?
I am blown away by this theory that the Seneca's are working at some great advantage that will have them overtake all things economic in Buffalo. EVERY economic endeavour is undertaken because a person or group believes they have an advantage. Whether it be a patent, or location, or a work force that has a certain knowledgebase or work ethic. People in the real world don't jump up and down about this, they compete, and attempt to create their own advantage. We've become so watered down with 'fairness' that are community doesn't recognize this. No wonder we can't compete... it just doesn't seem fair that someone has to lose.
And about this 'victory', I've won litigation that I was never able to enforce. Getting a court ruling, and getting the real world players to play along, are two very different things. Why such a racist attitude towards the Seneca's? Guess they would have been better served had a few more Skarnath's been on their side during the eighteenth and early ninteenth centuries ("Don't trust white man."). Somehow I think the score is still in our favor. Relax people, and watch, maybe we can all learn something from the Seneca's... or do you think your too smart for that?
What blows my mind is the anti-casion sentiment that seems to insinuate that if you are pro-casino you must be uninformed and/or stupid. It is precisely through this condescension that more and more people are moving away from their obstructionist rhetoric.
And statistics? I think we can all agree that statistics can be manipulated to support any number of suppositions... just ask Enron...
"Relax people, and watch, maybe we can all learn something from the Seneca's... or do you think your too smart for that?"
You put an apostrophe where it doesn't belong and leave one out where it does belong. I don't think you are too smart for that, for sure.
How do statistics lie when every hotel in Buffalo save one has to charge 17% taxes on hotel rooms?
If the room rate is $150, I pay over $20 extra in taxes if I stay at a regular hotel and I pay $0 if I stay at an Indian casino hotel. C'mon.
"Casnios destroy economies"
what are you smokin? Las Vegas has a pretty dead economy right? the casino here is going in an area that has been depressed and DEAD for DECADES. I will take a project of this size with a 5 star hotel and many good jobs anyday. The senecas may be the best thing to happen to WNY in about 50 years.
...you read through the end Rboy, so I think I got my point across. I'll assume that by questioning my grammar/spelling, but not my conclusions, that you agree. That's what's important.
"Casnios destroy economies"
what are you smokin? Las Vegas has a pretty dead economy right? the casino here is going in an area that has been depressed and DEAD for DECADES. I will take a project of this size with a 5 star hotel and many good jobs anyday. The senecas may be the best thing to happen to WNY in about 50 years.
Um......comparing this single casino in a depressed city to Las Vegas is rediculus. how far did Atlantic City get to being Las Vegas? how does Reno compare to the booming of Vegas?
Who is disputing the concept that business is about competition? Every business looks for a competitive advantage, and that includes property and sales tax breaks, abatements, exemptions and credits. Move your company into this federal Urban Empowerment Zone or this state Empire Zone and get all these tax breaks. But these breaks apply to any company that chooses to move into that zone. This gaming license was handed on a silver platter only to the Seneca's, who bring to all of their endeavors their claim of exemption from all local, state and federal taxes.
What I think we will learn from the Seneca's is that they have no intention of complying with the court's decision. And I'm not sure the federal government has the stomach to enforce the decision. I hope I'm wrong, but this administration's handling of every other issue doesn't give me much room for optimism.
The pro casino faction is made of non critical thinkers who only show the positives and ignore the complete picture.
I think former Congreemans LaFalce knows more about the position of Congression gambling legislation laws on native gambling than the bloggers who are pro casino. The law has been convoluted and wrongly manipulated and that is the decision of a Federal judge. U.S. Federal judges have the right and power to decide the laws that were passed by Congress and ignored by elected U.S.officials sworn to up hold the law. The Seneca Gambling Corporation knew there was a federal law suit but being gamblers they put all their chips on a not for sure bet and lost big time. See the law is not based on bets or mob rule.
I wish you casino proponents would accept the proven fact that gambling casinos do not help a depressed economy and granted while they might create over 1000 jobs, the overwhelming majority of those jobs are minimum wage to low wage jobs with little or no benefits. So lets kill that same old song and dance that this Seneca casino will create jobs. It will create mostly minimum wage and low wage jobs. I am strongly opposed to this casino because Buffalo does not need a casino, especially a tax exemt casino. Look at Atlantic City, NJ, almost thirty years of successful, profitable casino gambling and Atlantic City is still one of the worst places to live in the U.S. It is still mostly deteriorating, drug infested slums and abandonment. That is the proven track record of casino gambling in revitalizing troubled cities and depressed economies. As for the Senecas, if they want to own property and businesses in this city then they must be obligated to pay all federal, state, and local taxes just like everyone else. Just because they were on this land first does not grant them any legitimate right to be tax exempt. Their so-called national sovereignty should be ruled totally irrelevant. If they flatly refuse to pay taxes then the exact same thing should happen to the Senecas that happens to all other tax scofflaws. They should be fined and their property seized the same way that it would happen to the rest of us if we don't pay our taxes. This is only right and fair and serves in the best interests of everyone. Enough of this immoral favoritism for certain groups of people.
RPreskop:
Casino jobs all pay well over minimum to several friends I know with high school degrees and they get better health care and full benefits better than most people I know! Also, several were on UNEMPLOYMENT before the casino because there simply aren't many decent jobs in the Falls.
The casino in Buffalo would be the same.
The laws will be changed in time for this casino development to proceed as scheduled. So that will settle the matter, right? Because this is only about a legal snag, right? BTW, CBB lovers, Tom Golisano is going to place a few legislative bets of his own to scour out the kind of liberal riff raff in Albany that cater to the interests of do-gooder obstructionists. So enjoy the spectacle of the Senecas opening their casino from your lofty cheap seats.
One of the things I found interesting about the decision is that it traces 400 years of Native American history in WNY and all of the attendant land claims. The Seneca's aboriginal land is east of the Genesee River and west of Seneca Lake. They never lived on the Niagara Frontier as a tribe (although they hunted & fished here, and some worked for the French here).
They received $35 million dollars from the federal government under the Seneca Nation Settlement Act (SNSA) of 1990. They claimed they saved and used some of that money to buy the property in Buffalo and because they received that money in settlement of a land claim (99 year leases in Salamanca running from 1890 - 1989 where they were paid very little), & that provided them with the opportunity to create gaming-eligible sovereign territory with any property they bought with the money. The court said the SNSA did not settle a land claim, that the Seneca's had no legal claim against the federal government for the Salamanca leases, and the $35 million was essentially an act of beneficence on the part of the federal government. The judge also scolded the DOI/NIGC for doing little or no work on the essential issue before issuing the Class III license, and for essentially ignoring their own prior decisions in the area of off-reservation casinos.
We can no longer balance the state budget without the Lottery, but 50% is paid out in winnings and 50% is paid back to the state (purportedly only for education). The Seneca's have two casinos that are essentially printing money. If we're going to have casino gambling in Buffalo, aren't there lots of better ways than the path our elected officials chose for us?
You can't ignore the jobs this $33 million development will create.
The Senecas are a great employers. They recently included a $500 bonus in their employees pay checks to help pay for gas. The Senecas will do more for Buffalo than just create jobs and revenue. Think about the other things they will bring to the table. Things they will do outside of their contractual agreement. They will sponsor many downtown events andl contribute to charities. Imagine the firework displays they will have at the waterfront, and not just on July 4th. They are committed to WNY and will always be here. That can't be said for others. The Senecas are honorable people. They want to work with the city of Buffalo. They have kept there cool during all this BS and have shown great patience and class.
There will be no other casino/hotel like this. It will be an amazing destination. Keep it going!
Why/what kind of downtown events would they sponsor when they can just do almost any event they want in their own casino? What, if any, sort of things does the Niagara Falls Casino currently sponsor?
We all agree that the land near the casino has been stagnant for a few decades now correct? Also, no development has come down there besides this casino plan? Heres my idea. All the vacant or stagnant buildings should be knocked down, soil graded and turned into ready to build sites. Promote this new area by the water as the buffalo technological or business distract and cut taxes on any new business that will build in this area for 5 years. Promote the incentives and ready to go sites and try to get the growing technical field to come to this area. If Buffalo can get the blu cross/blue shield company to build near the 190 I think these incentives would get other businesses to come as well. This is just my idea for an option. Please don't bash me for being dumb or optimistic I am just throwing ideas out there for alternatives.Does anyone think this would be economically feasible or a good idea?
GIve me some sovern land a monopoly on High Stakes Casino gambling and I will put on some firework shows for you, a couple free concerts, $500 bonus, and some chairty work while taking your millions.
since that was given away, give me sovergn land, a monopoly on illegal drugs and prostiution and I'd do the same. Even build you a nice shiney drug resort. I'll give you 25% of pot profit. ;) .
Why/what kind of downtown events would they sponsor when they can just do almost any event they want in their own casino? What, if any, sort of things does the Niagara Falls Casino currently sponsor?
- The Seneca Gaming Corp. pledges millions in charitable donations to several organizations annually ($200,000 to the diabetes foundation last year).
- Seneca Gaming Corp. provides an endowed scholarship program, established in conjunction w/ Blue Cross Blue Shield of WNY. The scholarships are awarded to local students pursuing higher education in the health and human service fields.
- Seneca Gaming Corp. is an annual sponsor of First Night Buffalo.
- The Buffalo Bisons fridaynightbash (a WNY tradition at the ballpark) is sponsored by the Seneca Gaming Corporation.
There's lots more, should I continue?
These opponents of the casino are sadly, the most awful and sad of individuals you'll see:
They have no respect. Anti-Casino people should respect the wishes of the majourity, but they won't. Its really sad that these few people have no respect for the majority, when the majority should always do its best to respect the minority. Well... as long as you aren't a minority in the minority.
The Anti-Casino group are a plague on Buffalo. Just part of a string of devlopment projects slapped with lawsuits from people with to much time on their hands.
If these opposition people ever say "Why isn't anything ever built in Buffalo?" -- ECMC should personally revoke their right to breed.
Snowdream - What makes you think you're speaking for the wishes of the majority? Just because the CBB is a small group of people, that doesn't mean that they don't have a broad base of supporters - as many of the comments on this site should probably indicate. I would also remind you that the majority of people in New York state voted down the legalization of casino gambling and were never consulted on the issue of the three Class III casinos to be operated by Seneca Gaming.
If I were to apply your logic, I could also ask why the few people that make up Seneca Gaming think they can impose their wishes on us. But that would be just as silly a question. I could also ask why one man is allowed to impose his wishes on our city and blatantly disregard this country's laws... and judging by the Court's ruling, that is a somewhat less silly question.
Also, please keep in mind that our very system of government was set up to support healthy opposition by minority groups and created rules whereby such opposition is to be maintained. CBB are playing by the rules - they sued on legal grounds and won. Should the Department of the Interior/Seneca Gaming be immune from the law just because you want to see this casino go through?
And I don't see how calling anyone a "plague" or suggesting the sterilization of those who have opposing viewpoints could possibly be construed as showing respect for them.
Just an FYI - Channel 2 News this AM reported that the Wendt Foundation committed 2 million for the legal battle against the Senecas. That is interesting seeing they also reported they have about 128 million in their coffers; that is an appreciable potion of their holdings just for this one battle. They really must feel threatened about the prospects of Casino gambling n Buffalo to spend that kind of dough.
Snowdream - there are a few thoughtful comments from the pro-casino crowd (i.e. BenFranklin) and I have responded to them. I don't remember ever responding directly to a thoughtless or completely uninformed comment, but here goes:
1. I don't hide behind a screen name, and my profile (which you can access by clicking on my name) provides enough information on who I am and what I do to make Buffalo a better place to live, work, and play.
2. The public dialogue in Buffalo has changed in the past 10 years, with citizens no longer willing to accept mediocrity; or bad, thoughtless or illegal decisions by public officials. The restoration of the Olmsted parks, parkways & circles by the Olmsted Parks Conservancy, the planting of thousands of trees by the Buffalo Green Fund, the remediation of the Buffalo & Niagara Rivers by the Buffalo Niagara Riverkeepers, the preservation of the Darwin Martin House, Graycliff & the construction of the FLW Boathouse, Buffalo in Bloom, Garden Walk Buffalo, all of the Arts Festivals, the rebuilding of the Erie Canal terminus, the elimination of the Ogden & Breckinridge tolls & hundreds of other positive actions, including the recent battle to save the Livery on Jersey Street, have occurred solely or primarily because of citizen activism.
3. It is thoughtful public dialogue on sites like Buffalo Rising that allows people who love and care about Buffalo to stay up-to-date on important issues. But most of my friends don't read the comments on this site because so many of the comments are mean-spirited or thoughtless or uninformed.
4. I hope you are working in your job, or through your volunteer activities, or through charitable donations, to make Buffalo a better place. Because if you're just posting mean-spirited and uninformed comments on Buffalo Rising, all you're doing is helping to suppress the public dialogue which is essential to addressing the important issues, including the casino, facing Buffalo.
while the wendt folks, the Joel Rose circus et al continue their war on the Senecas I was wondering if their were any restaurants east of Main downtown?
While the Wendt folks, the Joel Rose circus et al continue their war on the Senecas I was wondering if there were any restaurants east of Main downtown?
I can safely talk of the majority. I can easilly hand 12 people out over and have a majority over the 12 people involved in the suit.
snowdream: huh?
Are you suggesting that you can determine what a majority of the public desires by rounding up 12 people? so small matters like a statewide referendum in which NYS voters declined to allow casinos means nothing to you?
Sure. Why let facts stand in your way.
Pretty sad, the biggest private investment in downtown Buffalo's history and it could be shot down from what I take is a very few individuals with millions for a lawsuit. If the Wendt Foundation cares so much about WNY and Buffalo ( which they obviously have in the past ) why couldn't they open up meetings/forums with the public to discuss and have open dialogue to convey their viewpoints and reasonings behind backing this lawsuit. Maybe Casino gambling financialy is not the best attraction/entertainment venue/business to bring into the city/county but let the public know why before you potentialy undermine millions of dollars of development and years of planning and preparation. Would of been nice if the residents of Buffalo decided if this was the type of project they wanted, make a well informed decesion after being given the facts. If Chris Collins retracted Erie County from this Law-suit and the Mayor also supports this Casino, and a majority of Buffalo citizens from what I gather support this Casino and their is a Seneca Casino in Niagara Falls (Sovereignty/Gambling debate never addressed (Total BS) ) then I would say the Wendt foundation has really stuck their necks out and now must be held accountable for their involvment in this lawsuit. The majority I believe have been underminded and you can sense the complete disgust many people now feel when they hear the how, why, and whose money was used for this lawsuit. Not suprised the board of the Wendt Foundation can not be reached for comment by the local area news networks. The Wendt foundation utilizing their funds to issue grants to help develope and nuture institutons they support such as the Hauptman-Woodward Medical Research Institute and various Universities, Colleges, Art, and other Cultural Institutions is perfectly acceptable. But to use your money to block Casino gambling becuase you simply don't like the idea (MO nothing to do with breaking the Law) , that is completely out of bounds for this organization and I hope they feel the collective weight of the majority of the public who supported this project on their shoulders. Hopefully it disuades them in the future from imposting their ideas and beliefs on other major developments.... waiting to be shot down as well.
The poll the Seneca's most often quote is the one from last summer done by Zogby International. They called 903 city residents over a 2 day period. The results that the Seneca's trumpeted to the world - 57% of Buffalo residents support the downtown casino.
Here is what they didn't say - 1) they PAID for the poll; 2) it was a "push" poll. The questions were framed so that people would respond that they favored the casino. Here are two of the questions:
a) If you knew that building the Seneca Buffalo Creek Casino would bring in 1000 jobs, would that make you more likely to support building the casino?
b) If you knew that building the Seneca Buffalo Creek Casino in downtown Buffalo would potentially mean an additional $5 million to $7 million in city revenue, would that make you more likely to support building the casino?
And even with those questions, they only got 57% in favor. Imagine what the results would have been if the poll had been paid for by Citizens for a Better Buffalo, and they had asked the question: If you knew that the Seneca's would never pay local, state or federal taxes, and that the casino would eliminate more jobs than it creates, would that make you less likely to support the casino? That's how push polls work - they push people to answer a certain way.
So the next time you think you are speaking for the majority of Buffalonians who clearly favor the casino, ask yourself if it's possible that you're just another person who has been manipulated by the Seneca propaganda machine.
If your for or against the CBB "citizens for a better buffalo" and what they have done for the casino let them know. They are the ones that can either continue to stop the casino or let it go now. So let them know how you feel. Heres their email address: Ed@BetterBuffalo.com . My opinion is: they have been around for 2 years and all they have done to make buffalo better is sue to stop the casino. I can already see my property values rising and my tax dollars decreasing. Deep breathe now..hoping hoping.....damn my house is still worth the same, my property value hasn't come up and the crack head is still wondering around outside.
Enough! The majority do want the $33 million development to move forward. It will happen. The CBB should start to focus on something productive. If they are so concerned about making Buffalo a better place than do something positive for the city.
skarnath - Interesting you proclaim a Seneca paid poll for determing what percentage of Buffalo residents support/oppose the Casino was rigged or unfair; probably because 57% of those polled supported the Senecas and their Casino. If this Seneca sponsored polll was deemed unfair then where is the CBB poll or better yet where is the Wendt Foundation's poll? Interesting isn't it neither of these two parties trully cared what Buffalo residents thought and wouldn't spend the time and/or resources to foot the bill for their own poll. Neither found it necessary to inform the public on why they should not support Casino gambling as well. Why bother if you have 2 million to spend on a BS lawsuit; just bypass the residents of Buffalo and do what you decree is the only option.
"So the next time you think you are speaking for the majority of Buffalonians who clearly favor the casino, ask yourself if it's possible that you're just another person who has been manipulated by the Seneca propaganda machine."
IIf you are referring to my comment specifically, I do not see how the content can be interpreted as me speaking for a majority, I was most definetely not. Also I never knew of the Zogby International poll until you brought it up, but thanks for supporting what I already deduced from all the media and news coverage of this project; 57% Buffalo residents support a Casino; majority plain and simple. This poll also seems to correctly relfect the feeling of many Buffalo residents that I have explicity asked what was their take on this project. It appears that the CBB and Wendt (Foundation/Lobbyist Group) now speak and act for all Buffalo residents...unconditionally.
orlanmon. You sound like an intelligent person except when you accept at face value poll numbers, without consideration of any nuances in the question asking. The most significant poll was taken at the voting booth. Each time that has come up, casinos have been rejected in NYS. Rather than rely on one particular snapshot, via a poll of questionable scientific value, ought we not rely on what the voters of the state have expressed at the ballot box? If supporters truly believe a majority support casino gaming, then change the law. Go to the ballot box.
As to your suggestions that the opponents of the casino should have commissioned their own polls, I'm sure as far as they see it polling numbers are absolutely irrelevant to the rule of law.
As I have said, I would accept casino gaming in Buffalo and elsewhere in NY. However this 'deal' with the Senecas is incredibly poor for Buffalo. I would demand we do better in the deal rather than give the money printing machine to a third party because it's more convenient than changing our laws.
Can someone please tell me how the Senecas are still operating their casino after they have been ordered by the court to cease gambling???
Binisz - I wasn't aware their was any such vote on the state level but if this was carried out and the results yielded a majoirty opposition to Casino gambling I would accept that completely. I am currently delving into all the various financial/economic repercussions that a Seneca Casion would have in Buffalo to more well versed with the reasonings of opposition this. My aggravation with this whole project is that we should of never gotten to this point in the first place if State, County and City governments were all doing their jobs and communicating with one another. With that said now 9 acres of the city of Buffalo is Seneca Sovereign territory and they can build a Casino but no gambling can be allowed, just wonderful. If this deal with the Senecas is poor for Buffalo then I say sweeten the pot for Buffalo and Erie country; God knows that NY State will get their piece of the pie; that is if Casino gambling on this purchased property is legal by New York State Law. Also I have yet to find out how the Seneca Niagara Falls Casino ( which I frequent often ) is in operation and how it was even allowed to be put into operation given all the hurtles and legal battles being waged for a downtown Buffalo equivalent.
gaustad - In regards to your questionl; the Buffalo news on Sunday did a piece on the State Inspectors at the temporary Casino and according to the article although Federal District Judge William Skretny ruling stated that although the current Casino is operating illegally, they did not yet issue a "cease and desist" order to close this Casino. From what I gather this won't happen until the National Indian Gaming Commision (http://www.nigc.gov/) agrees with the current Federal District Judge ruling and enforces the closure. Strange how this Federal Regulatory group first allowed this Casino to move forward and didn't even perform the necessary groundwork to determine this Casino would be illegal in NY State in the first place... I give up. Hey hows the Outer Harbor doing anyways:)
orlanmon: good responses. pleasure to converse with reasonable voices.
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