Homer: "People can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of people know that."

Buffalo area voters - the same ones who returned most of the county legislature to office even after the budget mess? The same ones who re-elected George Holt after he was found to not be paying his business' taxes and after he tried to increase spending on a buddy's company during the budget mess? The ones who keep complaining that our state government is killing us, but keep re-electing the same representatives? Yeah, let's see what they have to say. More and more I find that this area gets the crappy governance it deserves, and in a lot of ways put itself in this hole. That's why the courts have to come in to save us, and we need control boards to watch over us - because we can't be trusted after all this to keep from screwing it up. This is another PR move by the Senecas, to convince us that this casino is good for us. They'll throw the governments some cash to keep them on board, they'll throw around some numbers that say they created this many jobs while ignoring how many more were destroyed, they'll tell you about how benign this is so no one notices what's really going on. Put it this way - in gambling operations, the only winner is the casino. If you keep going you will lose.

why don't we poll the senecas to see what they think about making casino gambling completely legal in nys?

I have one one question that seems to never be answered??????? When is Cornelius D Murray, attorney for concerned citizens against gambling in Erie County going to take the hamburgs racetrack casnio, New york lottery, and all the Bingo halls and churches and everywhere that has to do with gambling to court and have them all shut down also????????????????????????? I know he is stupid and dosent understand that there are more gambling places in Erie county then the senecas, or is he just raciset?????????????? Until i see this concerned citizens aganist Gambling ,take every other gambling place in erie to court and have then shut down , I am 100% sure that they all are raciset against Indaians and should all be brought up on racist charges period..............

Yeah, I agree with Joel "The poll also determined that a wide majority of those questioned statewide believe that attempts by the New York State Legislature to impose taxes on the sale of tax-free tobacco by Indian retailers does not honor treaties between Indian nations and the U.S. government." That means they pushed that response in the question. The fact of the matter is this, the native governments enjoy all of the public trust that we do. They should pay thier part in it.

Secondly a casino in Buffalo is only going to drain the pockets of WNY and provide no return. I'm ok with the casino if it part of a broader plan, but the one that's going up now is NOT!!! There is nothing around it. Not but for parking ramps. Its meant to suck people in, keep them in and drain thier pockets. All casinos are butil like this on purpose. If you MUST built it then connect it to the inner harbor and cobblestone district at least. Put in a native museum showing the history and culture of natives. It would go nice with the museum in the Commerical Slip.

I'm all for it sitting as a rotting steel cage until they do. It doesn't look any worse than the rotting grain elevators do now.

The last time Zogby did a poll on behalf of the Seneca Nation of Indians, the Buffalo News gushed over it, until it was revealed to be a blatant push-poll. That is, a poll in which the questions strongly suggest the right answers. In that case, however, someone revealed the questions to ArtVoice, resulting in the following article:

http://artvoice.com/issues/v5n27/buffalo_news_pimps_the_casino

I'm strongly inclined to suspect that they've done the same thing again.

Zogby has a history of working with Indian gambling interests. In writing to the CACGEC and CAGNY lists about the push-poll in Buffalo, when I had naively expressed the point of view that Zogby was a reputable polling firm, I received several messages setting me straight. This one was typical:

> Dear Joel - > > ... I respectfully disagree with your characterization of the Zogby outfit as reputable. I have seen them influence > outcomes of commercial jobs (as opposed to their better known political samplings) by wording questions in a > manner that virtually demanded the outcomes desired by their sponsors. In your position, I would request to see > the protocols employed by the information gatherers. My guess is that if you make such a request, it will be > ignored. My recollection is that they were once exposed as asking something like "If the receipts of Indian > gaming would lower your taxes, would you be in favor of casinos?" and then reporting the results as favoring > Indian Gambling. > > And don't discount the power of gambling money influencing local newspapers. > > And finally, I think I recall that they (Zogby) moved their offices to a building owned by one of the Indian Nations > and that their results may be, therefore, questionable in terms of disinterestedness.

Another referred me to an article in "The American Prospect" highlighting Zogby's practices:

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=john_zogbys_creative_polls

Writing to the BfloIssueAlerts list on the same topic, I noted:

> I worked in the Survey Research Center at UB from 1969-79, for most of those years as Associate Director and > Chief of Operations. We would have refused to do a poll like that, no matter what the client wanted and no > matter how much they were paying. It would have been unthinkable, not just for us, but for every reputable > polling organization, including major commercial organizations like Gallup and Roper as well as academic > organizations.

Joel Rose

co-Chairperson, Citizens Against Casino Gambling in Erie County http://NoCasinoErie.org

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ElmwoodBoy The treaty rights of Indians are for them to enloy tax free purchases, not to infinitely make tax-free sales to non-Indians. BIG DIFFERENCE.

I agree with Elmwoodboy but Im sure that doesnt suprise anyone

Message to Senecas, your revenue sharing for both Buffalo and Niagara and I think Salamanca is only good for 15 years from the start of gambling...after that you dont have to share

So lets just be honest, you already have a darn good deal with those Casinos for the Senecas....shut the f-up and keep the good deal you have....dont be greedy...pay the f-n taxes!

I wonder how slanted the questions were.

does it mean that the majority oppose the buffalo casino since those results werent included?

We are a poor city...the deal sucks...end of story. Get Buffalo a better deal and im all for it!

First off lets get Buffaloweiner taken care of. Bud I am not a minority and I pay more taxes in a year then you make in a year i guanitee it. So to say i dont pay taxes you dont know what you talking about. Second heathersmiles not to be mean or disrespectful but I dont think you ever been to a casino. There is only slot machines and card tables in them. I go alot to them in Niagra falls and the people that dont have alot of money only play slot machines which are the samethings in hamburg and Batavia, i know been to both of them also, and the only people that play the card tables are the ones that have money like myself and can afford to lose and yes sometimes win.What I am saying occording to the lawyer in his press confernce he claims that people without money would not be able to pay for school supplies and waste all there money on slots. Well They can go to a store and waste all ther money on lottery tickets just as fast as a casino. Do you think New york State cares if you lose money and cant buy school supplies.?????? Yes DBU I understand the legality of the law. Here is my point of veiw. I know people dont agree but thats fine. Everything going into the waterfront should be for everybody not just a select few. I dont think its a great idea of giving brass pro 64 million dollars and tax breaks for 15 yrs but I know there are alot of hunters and fishing people that would love for them to come and thats good and fine with it so it will fit in well with everything else. Then there are alot of people like myself that would love the casino to come to Buffalo so i can go to it and have fun also. Just to set the record start, i go to the casino in Niagra falls, and have a good time, but i dont eat there only once in a while and mainly eat at resturants in niagara falls and go to the hard rock and clubs and when i drink to much get a hotel in niagara falls. So i spread my money out on the econmy and not just at the casino,in which i would do the same In Buffalo. Not to be mean but I am not coming to buffalo just to see a watertfront. If i was going to go anywhere to see just a waterfront i would go to Balitmore because i really like theres alot. Alot of people i talk to around the east coast and yes i travel, are saying its to bad you people are making a mistake and not building the casino because we was going to be coming to Buffalo to visit it and then go see other places while we our there. I know this drives people crazy but the truth is casinos bring people to your city,and if you ask people that come, 9 out of 10 would say they came because of the casino and then visited other things when they were here which would be great for buffalo and the business and you could take advantage of it by having a info booth by the casino letting people know all of the other great things the city has to offer like museums,zoos and etc. To give you a good example and yes i know people are going to say this is not las vegas, but I go to Las Vegas for the casinos, but when i am there i also go out to alot of shows. This could be a Las Vegas if people in this area would stop trying to stop everything and just sit down and figure out how to use the casino as a big drawing point for Buffalo and then build around it like they do in Vegas. Yes this could be Vegas if it was done right.

boo hoo im viking im a liberal victimized minority that doest want to obey the laws or pay taxes

boo hoo but I want my us citizenship and goverment programs and special pi\rivileges

screw you buddy, your like everyone else

This topic is really getting old. Put the issue of gambling to a referendum and let the CITIZENS decide.

Eight out of ten may consider themselves duped.

Methinks there is a ringer in the group.