"Levy said that the above ground canal allows for spending on what people can see, rather than rerouting the existing infrastructure involving the Hamburg Drain, which would come at a higher cost. "
It would be nice to know what that cost is compared to what they propose. It appears they raise the open space one story above the street to avoid the drain in front of Bass Pro.
It would be great if they could solve the infrastructure problems first as the plan looks compromised because of it.
What happens if a car flys off the skyway into canal side? The skyway obviously proposes a health hazard to this district. If they can get some retail and stuff to do this would be great ala Baltimore's inner harbor with the espn zone, barnes and noble, cafes etc.
Hopefully the flowing water will offset MOST of the noise pollution caused by cars passing above on the skyway!!!
Agreed.. can you imagine walking around in an outdoor market (that isn't a permenant building) and having even a tire or some sort of debris falling off the skyway.
Its models like this in congruence with cost analysis that just PROVE the skyway needs to go.
Kudos for putting a temporary building underneath and actually looking to lessen the hardness of the silos and the skyway with lights and art.. make the best of it while we got it!
http://buffaloruse.com/2008/12/common-council-fast-tracks-pitts-waterfront-proposal/
Agreed.. can you imagine walking around in an outdoor market (that isn't a permenant building) and having even a tire or some sort of debris falling off the skyway.
Its models like this in congruence with cost analysis that just PROVE the skyway needs to go.
Kudos for putting a temporary building underneath and actually looking to lessen the hardness of the silos and the skyway with lights and art.. make the best of it while we got it!
Hopefully the flowing water will offset MOST of the noise pollution caused by cars passing above on the skyway!!!
Last night a bunch of us were underneath the skyway checking out the physical structure. Within 10-15 minutes we almost got hit by a falling engine block, a Toyota Supra, and a couple from Cheektowaga.
Case in point, they actually dredge the canal underneath the Skyway every year. I think last year there were well over a hundred cars, 500 tires, and several misguided opinions. Is there anyway we sue over this?
All it would take is one incident and people will be up in arms about this. Don't get me wrong I love this project and I'm thinking it would be great to get into a loft near this area because I anticipate it being a huge hot spot and money maker as well as a tourist attraction as stated by the afore mentioned Quinn. I'm just saying, Quinn stated that they thought of everything. People have been known to have been blown off the skyway from the wind so it is always a possibility that something of that nature occurs.
You have quite the imagination nate! Has a car ever fallen off the Skyway? Ever? Paint droplets yes. Hondas, never.
Of course all that comes out are negatives. The skyway isn't going anywhere, so incorporate it as much as possible, you will be amazed at how much the activity at the street level will draw attention away from the skyway above, especially if buildings and landscaping help to hide it. And comments will flow in about the amount of parking, this project won't work without it, retailers won't come without parking. And of course there will be the comments of how this will never happen. Maybe. This is a good plan. Could it be better? Probably, but for Buffalo its right and I'm excited about it.
lol ok fair enough...if they light it up with led lights kinda like the peace bridge is going to be i think they could play off the sky way as well
Larry Quinn will never allow any direct competition for the Arena, i.e., food before a game. Where are the pubs and restaurants????
natenq6 asks,"What happens if a car flys off the skyway into canal side?" The answer? Delighted shoppers pounce on the cool free stuff. More to the point, what exactly will lurk under those barn-like roofs? A lot of retailers are going to disappear in the next two years making leasing a real nightmare. And retailers are filing bankruptcy just to wriggle out of their late-boom leases. So who will step up to the plate here? I have the feeling that the State of NY will be one handing out coupons...
the covered market area might act as a sound barrier to make the skyway a little more bearable also...
There's two parking ramps planned for a total of 1800 cars -- I don't think parking will be too much of a problem. And you might as well make the best of the skyway while it's here, and the noise isn't THAT terrible -- and wouldn't be if there was a lot of activity below it. Might actually look pretty cool lighted up. Sure, the plan's not perfect, but in reailty this would be amazing as it's planned and draw tons of people, especially with the right mix of retail/dining/entertainment. I like the Barnes and Noble idea...how about a Best Buy or FYE?
If this exceeds expectations this could do a lot to prove to investors the viability and benefits to downtown. Could become a catalyst for expansion and development downtown....agreed?
Great plan - I'm waiting for all the negatives, but I hope people don't let their pessimism get the best of them. Go to the Buff News website, and watch the 5min video of Quinn and Levy talking about the plan - its great, and you can tell people spent a long time thinking about this.
And one note on the Skyway - a public market is the perfect thing to put underneath it. In Portland (to many on this site the ultimate in urban planning), their Saturday Market is underneath a much lower and noiser bridge. I never notice when I go shopping there, and its one of the most popular places in town.
Hospitable: I understand your frustration and I share it.
After watching this process closely I do not believe we are much closer to development than we were four years ago, when the court-ordered, publicly-vetted 2004 Master Plan was released.
The plan was approved after millions of dollars and dozens of public meetings were held. The plan is in place and it's now the law.
I am frustrated because the ECHDC and Benderson do not believe the public consensus Master Plan or years of work and millions of public dollars should apply to them.
So they are free to dream up unaccomplishable, ridiculous ideas even as they continue to disregard a plan that is already approved and ready to be completed: namely, to reconstruct the Canal District streets that already exist under a few inches of gravel, and to sell lots or lease lots to developers who would be free to built restaurants, boutique hotels, taverns, or other water-enhanced uses within new structures that follow carefully considered historic district guidelines.
The streets were supposed to be completed this summer, but Benderson told ECHDC not to start work, because they want streets that will provide ease of access to tractor trailers that national retailers apparently seek: changes that would destroy the existing cobblestone streets underneath.
The above plan is not progress. It will likely halt completion of the Canal District project for at least another year, at best.
NYC, you're right on the money with your comments. The raised canals look really strange and are a perfect example of a bandage approach to development. Hopefully Larry Quinn will be well positioned at the bottom of the fake waterfall to catch the "floaters" from the Hamburg drain. Actually, I suspect that's the same fake waterfall that once graced the Walden Galleria Mall. All that's missing is Willie Coyote in a wooden barrel.
Bass Pro seems NOT to be taking the Buffalo project seriously, no matter what the company's president is saying for publication.
Go to Bass Pro's website and look at the store location map. There are seven red stars for future stores. Six out of the seven have updated (as in sometime this year) reports on plans and progress. One, only one, of the red stars brings up a four-year old report, a report old enough to talk about New York's Governor Pataki. Oops...I guess I gave it away.
Now perhaps the website manager has overlooked all the work relating to Buffalo that has been going on at Bass Pro or Bass Pro management has neglected to keep the site manager updated, but maybe there just hasn't been anything happening for the past four years.
Where is the Liberty Pole ?.....Bass pro is not the saving grace aggressive pursuit of other attractions needs to take place. A over priced tackle shop that sells products for a sport that can only be enjoyed in this region six months out of the year is destined for a short stay here.
Will Bass Pro even survive the credit crisis? How many of their customers pay cash for their $500 fly fishing kit? That's one business model that makes absolutely no sense in a pay as you go world where discretionary spending evaporated. Put in a 24 screen cinema with IMAX instead. People can always dig a ten dollar bill out of their tattered Rogan jeans.
i think i like it. Unfortunately we're back at square 1 since this is another redesign. Tielman has already said he'll fight it. I don't see construction starting next fall as planned.
As for the skyway, I never heard it while at the canal this summer.
Has a car ever flown off the Skyway? I could believe stories of cars falling through the old Father Baker Bridge, but i have my doubts of Illinois Nazi-style launches off the Skyway. Otherwise, it looks like a decent plan. I hope it's first-floor retail and dining throughout; it's not much fun window-shopping title companies, law firms and social service agencies.
BRA> A over priced tackle shop that sells products for a sport that can only be enjoyed in this region six months out of the year is destined for a short stay here.
I'm not a Bass Pro fanatic, but they sell far more than just fishing supplies.
"Overpriced tackle shop?" If there's one thing Buffalo needs, it's more "overpriced" stores. The area already has more than its fair share of low-to-middle end retail, and far less higher-end retail than similar markets. Not that Bass Pro is in the same class as a Nordstroms, Whole Foods or Crate and Barrel when it comes to upscale retail, but some destination retail is far more preferable to another Gander Montain or a Buffalo-style Outdoors Discount Factory Outlet Warehouse Superstore.
Tielman doesn't like the plan and is going to fight it? What a surprise. Hopefully he'll wait to have his hissy fit until the construction equipment is on-site so that the project can be delayed even longer.
There is more to the project than a street being rebuilt where it was a zillion years ago. I seriously wish he would move to another city.
Has a car ever flown off the Skyway? I could believe stories of cars falling through the old Father Baker Bridge, but i have my doubts of Illinois Nazi-style launches off the Skyway. Otherwise, it looks like a decent plan. I hope it's first-floor retail and dining throughout; it's not much fun window-shopping title companies, law firms and social service agencies.
BRA> A over priced tackle shop that sells products for a sport that can only be enjoyed in this region six months out of the year is destined for a short stay here.
I'm not a Bass Pro fanatic, but they sell far more than just fishing supplies.
"Overpriced tackle shop?" If there's one thing Buffalo needs, it's more "overpriced" stores. The area already has more than its fair share of low-to-middle end retail, and far less higher-end retail than similar markets. Not that Bass Pro is in the same class as a Nordstroms, Whole Foods or Crate and Barrel when it comes to upscale retail, but some destination retail is far more preferable to another Gander Montain or a Buffalo-style Outdoors Discount Factory Outlet Warehouse Superstore.
I actually like the idea of some atrium spaces over the streets. Sure it isn't historically accurate but with the skyway and our weather it would really help to temperate the quality of the space under them.
Plus the atrium certainly help in the winter with snow and ice coming off the bridge. We don't need to worry about cars flying off but there is snow and ice that does....
Where do I begin? Well let me be succinct with my comments.
1) the hamburg drain follows the canal....dig it up and restore the canal...it looks very compromised and I hate the underground museum. I want buildings where the green space is!!!!
2) Put a clear roof on the public market to act as an atrium allowing fresh light over the cobblestone street
3) The buildings must have a period architectural styling of that period. That period was diverse enough.
4) Love the Liberty Pole addition
5) I like the idea that the Donovan will be expanded and built to the sidewalk for retail.
6) Id like to see the DL&W Passenger Terminal reconstructed and integrated in the Wharf, so the wharf district can extend all the way from Erie Street to Michigan.
7) Where will the lift bridges to the Inner and Outer Harbor go?
8) It also looks like the only viable replacement now for the Skyway would be a tunnel. I 4 lane grade level parkway under this plan would ruin the entire wharf district.
9) Cobblestone Streets can handle trucks....I think this is non-sense and if there are concerns Im sure they can be addressed....there are high traffic cobblestone streets all over the eastcoast.
10) Cars flying off the skyway....havent heard that one.
11) On a last thought, the Buffalo State Maritime Center should be involved. Canal Barges, Freight Schooners, LaSalles Griffon, Adm Perrys 1812 Warship....should all be part of our wharf experience as historic ships are part of Boston, NYC, Baltimore, etc.
Hope it happens.
I wonder if they'll put up a "your tax dollars at work sign". But heck, if they really get 9mil a year in tax levy out of it it's money well spent.
Here's to it not being another gorgeous model, and actually a reality!
By the way, the skyway looks fine to me in this model. If there are another off ramp or two, what would it really matter if this thing stays? I never got the arguments. I didn't go to the waterfront down by Fuhrman because it was a toxic sesspool with nothing to do around it, not because of the skyway.
Is there anyone else who distrusts Quinn to the extreme and essentially has become the defacto mouthpiece for the waterfront?
BassPro should be just one component of Canalside. Instead, the parking ramps, skeletal Skyway, other buildings, fake canals, and underground museum seem to be designed as mere non-competitive supporting players to BassPro. It's all a water-brick road on the way to the Fish of Oz.
Hiding a museum underground like a bunker is an insult to the area's heritage and it is the clearest demonstration that none of this development is about recapturing any historical integrity. The museum should have pride of place to explain Buffalo's waterfront to residents and tourists, but it's quite clear that the developers don't want it to obscure the glow of BassPro.
Some measure of historical integrity and a place where tourists and residents want to visit are not mutually exclusive concepts.
Is anyone more impressed with the people that take the initiative to redo Buffalo - I'm talking about those cases of people restoring homes, starting small businesses like those on Rhode Island St, Main Street....than these large developments that really only leave the City/NY as stakeholders if they fail (meaning the subsidized loans can be balked at if the project fails...)?
I hope it happens, but this story made me realize I have much more admiration for the individuals who spend and risk their own savings than on these big waterfront projects.
This new plan will look really great on the shelf in the library downtown next to all the others!
This new plan will look really great on the shelf in the library downtown next to all the others!
Seriously, though. Tielman is right. This plan doesn't meet any of the requirements of the already agreed on plan and will only cause more delays. And the elevated canal solution for the Hamburg Drain is laughable.
The covered canal / street is a great addition to the plan. It will make the place a bit more usable in the winter. I hope canal ice skating is included.
Ok, let's really get the preservation of what it once was. Bordelos, hand painted signage, dark alleys and corners where folks could get bumped off real easy. Yeah, Tielman, do it your way - and we'll be in another imapsse for 10 more years. Jerk.
Though improvements will surely be made between now and the start of construction the overall vision for the site is spectacular. Others have already posted many possible improvements, so the only suggestion that I want to make concerns activities for children. The importance of attracting families to this site and the surrounding area should not be underestimated. There are far too few attractions geared toward children in the City of Buffalo. My wife and I often must travel to the suburbs to find attractions that our three young children (ages 5 months to 3 years) will enjoy. A children's museum is sorely needed in the city. Waterfront developments in other cities, such as Chicago's Navy Pier, have incorporated children's museums. Though this may not fit into the plans for Canal Side it may be a perfect fit for a site such as the DL&W Terminal. I also hope that the proposed great lakes museum will include exhibits that are kid friendly (and this museum should probably be on top of the green space rather than beneath it). Families are an extremely important demographic for cities to attract and retain because people with children are much less transient than those without children. Children are also potential long term residents. I hope this fact is being considered in the planning for both the inner and outer harbors.
Retry: Cars n trucks n buses and boats! (Where did my first post go to?)
I am not going to comment directly about this project. Others are doing just fine.
I do want to say that the pictures here, in color, are much better than what was in the local newspaper today and any other b/w depictions elsewhere of this canal project.
Black and white does not explain that one of the at least five surfaces is for transportation; four by land, one by "sea" and one is clearly a parking ramp. In color, one of the surfaces is clearly blue water. Without that blue to designate water, a photograph of the canal project looks as if there is a wide, long strip of some sort of surface with piles of something on it.
About construction too close and under overpasses. It is not a joke that stuff falls from those roadways.
When these expressways were first built, it was thought that the land under them was unsafe and dirty so no people, vehicles or buildings were allowed. That was then. This is now.
The people population is growing so fast, so densely and so demandingly that what used to be considerations and concerns for injury or damage have gone the way of liability. Liability has turned to just-forget-it non-negotiability.
Back when there was parking outside of the Aud under Dewey's Thruway, Concern and Liability was tested. There was too desperate a need to park near the Aud so it could stay viable while the rust and saltwater and other debree fell on the people and parked vehicles. C&l must have tested positively for lack of liability, then and now.
I know this sounds like a petty request but what about some things to bring outdoor activities to the canal. We have places to run, walk and play basketball all over the city so how cool would it be if we had some sand volleyball courts on the water front? Kayak and canoe rentals? Some areas dedicated to fishing?
Beyond the occasional music entertainment there needs to be thought put into how this area could be utilized for sailing regattas, water skiing and wake boarding competitions, poker runs and maybe even a Redbull Flugtag or an occasional cardboard box boat race. Non water events could include the Dew tour or professional volleyball.
This plan is focused on tourism and it needs more than shopping and period style buildings to keep bringing people back. I hope moving forward these possibilities are at least considered.
I always thought there should be a Buffalo to Detroit Regatta....but I understand the problem is that there is no money in Buffalo or Detroit for such a prize to attract anyones interest.
The biggest flaw is that they simply will not address the hamburg drain ... and building underground museums, open space and elevated canals...isnt going to fly. Dear Mr. Teilman, you would be wise not to oppose and stall the entire project but to focus specifically on the canals, the hamburg drain, the underground museum, the open space and period architectural requirements.
Let the Hotel, the Prime Street Canal, the webster block, the public market, the retail/restaurant component, Bass Pro, the Donovan and the Parking Garage move forward.....the underground museum, the above ground canals, the hamburg drain, the open space and the architectural elements are the key elements where they do not conform.
AND THE OTHER PIECE OF THE PUZZLE JUST THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SKYWAY IS THE DL&W....REBUILT THE PASSENGER CONCOURSE WOULD EXTEND THE WHARF DISTRICT FROM ERIE STREET TO MICHIGAN STREET!!!!!
Opposition to the plan that actually halts this development for years would be tragic. There's a fine line between a preservationist and an obstructionist. If Tielman slows the entire project down, I think it's pretty clear which category he falls into.
Jmaska: we all know what Tielman is and he will demonstrate it again [deleted: threat]
But on another note, the more I understand this plan, the more I like it. It sounds practical and as if they really listened to developers and respected the historic nature of the site but not with all that b/s fake knockoff crap.
There is actually quite a bit of "knockoff crap" and i know this will not be a well received comment but the plan confuses the hell out of the history of the site.
I personally do not think you should try and recreate the district exactly as it was, but in the very least the history should be respected.
There was an extensive battle to have phase one reflect the site historically by not building the commercial slip in the wrong location. This current project ignores that battle and assumes a free pass to do what it likes.
Making this proposal better does not require a drastic redesign, only more thoughtful design.
The initial phase of the Canal project is deemed a great success. Do you know why? Because people like Tim Tielman slowed the process down. Otherwise we would have had Masiello's generic harbor that obliterated the Canal, and we would have a really ugly Naval museum.
If slowing things down means getting it right, then I say slow it down. The "raised canals" don't sound very authentic to me. We can move the "Hamburg drain".
Let's remember who the real obstructionists are: those that will settle for anything.
The skway has to go, to invest this much under an ugly, noisy, dirty highway bridge is just plain stupid.
Larry Quinn's commentary that the "The vision for Canal Side is, and has always been, to create something attainable and extraordinary" ....... be very weary to those who say they "create" (i.e., something out of nothing) ..... ex-nihilo. Those who author such a position ultimately run the risk of conceiving a one-liner - purging our experiences of wonder and rendering the concept to be indifferent to a variety of experiences from one event to the next. Once this concept has been exhausted - they will soon use the word sustainable or green to cloud the real issue at hand ...... Vision.
In looking at what is being presented as a Vision further reveals that our civic planner(s) use the word attainable to be re-defined as the homogeneous Benderson-Development kitch that speaks more to the suburban strips-mall venacular over integrating a sincere approach of Buffalo imagery, historicity, and materiality? ...... Attainable - does Quinn really mean surrendering the Vision to the square footage costs of Benderson's WILL and will give everyone the vinella box we all love in the suburbs? ....... Attainable - does Quinn really mean to bring forth a kind of craftmanship, technique and construction process where we mimic the Benderson's ideology of economy and efficiency over the poetic and imaginative? Attainable - does Quinn really mean Benderson hired design consultants that have never put together a Master Plan or community that required an extra-ordinary presence of architecture and place?
Why does every building look the same - these building can be seen in any 1980's development - how is this extra-ordinary? Is this suppose to be urban renewal? It appears that everyone of the buildings are built to imaginary setbacks with convoluted masses and angles guided by strict regulation building heights and gross s.f. that pays homage to the national chain Bass Pro. Why shouldn't these structures be shaped by the environment in which it locates itself (i.e., natural elements, contextual relationships, perspectival spaces) within the City - promoting an "otherness" (an image other than Bass Pro) towards an extra-ordinary Icon, emblematic of place as an event. The Master Plan should rethink the strategy of making the imagery - rather than be subservant to the national chain. It appears The City of Buffalo is visiting Bass Pro rather than Bass Pro serving the community.
What is really being presented here is a snapshot, void of time and place - re-presenting the pseudo-urban condition of our City of Buffalo's into a commodified instant ready-made image. On a postive note - This plan will further strengthen Mayor Brown's position for his adoration for Pitt's Wingate M-otel for the mere fact that this plan allows our other bad choices to have context in the city.
Right on Hamp, too bad we didn't "slow the process down" when politicians made dumb decisions like the way the 190, 198, and 33 were jammed through the middle of good solid neighborhoods or the way great old buildings were demolished during "urban renewal". Citizen involvement is key to successful community development.
There's a difference between demolishing neighborhoods for highways and halting development of a potential tourist destination because it doesn't adhere exactly to historical specifications. 95% of people coming to this site wont care whether or not a street is replicated to the tee. The plan, as is, looks unique and provides a great tribute to Buffalo's past while giving people something to do downtown. As far as the architecture goes, how can we complain if we don't know what the buildings will actually look like yet? Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Over all the past few years, I have seen maps, plans, diagrams, and other renderings of the many incarnations of this project. I have read many pro/con articles. None of them (including the ones pictured in this post) gave me any idea of what the vision will look like or what the scale will be. After reading the comments of today, I watched the video available through the online version of The News. Now it makes sense. I like it warts and all.
No one can blame Tielman or the Campaign for Greater Buffalo for any slowdown. The ECHDC is intentionally delaying the street reconstruction that would get the project jump-started because they want to change/destroy the street network that exists three inches under the gravel as we speak.
The project would be well underway were it not for Benderson and ECHDC calling for "new studies" that have effectively brought everything back to a halt. Where do you think the construction equipment went after the Central Wharf plaza was completed? Tim didn't tell them to leave...
jmaska - You said it perfectly. It should not be build exactly to what it was. What it was...a large industrial port filled with cheap hotels, brothels, cheap whiskey joints, and industrial equipment, and small places to eat.
The 2008 version should be family centered with restaurants and daily activities. We need the past incorporated but not an exact model. It would be wonderful to have all the things that are being proposed. We live in 2008 not in 1900. I just hope one of the stores will be a barnes and noble like the one in Baltimore. What an unbelievable location to have a cup of coffee and read a book. I really hope construction starts when they say. I dont think anyone will truly believe until one or more buildings become built.
Chris Hawley is exactly right. ECHDC is at fault for every delay in this project. They have repeatedly sold the site short, because they want to appease Benderson's uncertainty with dense urban development.
They know how the project could be done right, but it won't be as long as Benderson continues to be involved. Why do you think Cordish just up and left the project years ago???
townline and chris hawley you are flat out wrong. Benderson has deep pockets, connections with major retailers, restaurants, and development companies. Benderson is more than capable of handling this project and Im sure they are the only reason bass pro still wants to place a store there.
Im not saying Benderson is an end all be all but a good company to have jump start an extremely important area. Eventually there should be a section designated for other development companies and ideas, this is a city. But me need to pick this plan and go with it. The plan looks fantastic. I think a few things can be tweaked but going back to an exact replica of how it was in 1890 is ridicous. I see no problem with wider streets and a watermill. Seems like a good idea to me. Lets just hope for the sake of our city and region that we can have something similar to what was revealed to the medi a on sunday and more importantly expedited.
Tim Tielman has yet to articulate a position on this speculative rendering, so why are we assailing him for his purported opposition? I generally don't agree with his positions, but it seems like a bad idea to preemptively establish him as the bogeyman of opposition.
It is much more likely that this project will not be completed due to the proposed abolition of the empire zone program, the contracting national retail market, tight commercial lending market and general economic recession.
If true that circumstances now are likely to derail this project as ChrisSmith implies then I would be extremely frustrated. We have been chasing Bass Pro for years with nothing to show. If we took the money we have available and built the street grid, possibly moved the hamburg drain, maybe extend the canal, and accelorated the process to remove the skyway we'd have something to show. Then parcel out land to developers with design guidlines and accept that this is a 10 year project which is better then a Bass Pro megaplex that we expect to just appear and save the day, because at the end of the day, 10 years from when it all began we'd have something to show, instead we'll have the donovan building still standing and grass lots covering the site because ultimately Bass Pro couldn't make it work....and we'll be here again...with our empty waterfront wondering what to do and why we failed again.
Bill Gates has deep pockets too, but that doesn't mean he knows how to do this type of project. Find me ONE example of Benderson even attempting a project that is remotely similar to the inner harbor.
Are you aware that the so called retail "expert" that Benderson has on this project is the same guy whose normal priority is to oversee development their Delta Sonics? You don't have a brain surgeon do a heart operation. They may be brilliant and have all the tools, but that doesn't mean they are able to do it right. If you want Benderson to court retail tenants, fine. But they should absolutely not be allowed to dictate the design of the project, which is what ECHDC is allowing them to do. There are many different types of developers out there, and Benderson is one that does very well with their projects, but they don't develop this type of project, its not their specialty.
Right on NYC. Its backtracking, but thats how this project should have been done in the first place. Unfortunately, that won't satisfy the "at least Bass Pro is better than the gravel lot for the past 50 years" crowd.
With a plan in place, you can break it down to individual components and build as the markets allow. Just the way cities have built for generations. The real improvement here is the final turn away from superblocks and catch-all mega developments that ignore the vernacular street grid and architecture of Buffalo. From this we can move forward to refine this plan, move the Hamburg drain and regrid the property. If the rest of the waterfront were similarly planned, there could be an amazing built environment that wraps around Downtown and repatriates the waterfront with the city. And that could presage a similar wraparound to the north and east of Downtown that would redensify that area and set the table for some serious high rise residential in the future.
having worked with alot of retailers....and having been to the national retail convention in las vegas...... I can tell ya that benderson has a tremendous amount of respect from the national retailers. which is largely what will make this project happen. without retail intrest......we wouldn't be building most of these buildings. Benderson isn't "planning" or "dictating" they type of buildings that are being built....that would be our wonderful politicians and our zoning and building laws....or lack there of.
Scooter, retail doesn't happen based on respect. It happens based on demographics and profit margins.
paul, thank you....i was a retail real estate broker for ten years, i understand.
i was commenting on some of the negative comments some have made towards benderson. it's my opinion that they are the right company for this job. for many reasons.
yes.....demographics are hugely important. so is hiring the right company to get the story about buffalo, wny and this project out to national companies who have never heard one positive thing about buffalo ever.
if you've ever spoken to any of the benderson reps....they tell the story of buffalo to outsiders better then most. certainly better then cordish would have and defenitly better then most of our @sshat politician could.
and...i don't blame developers for the boring uninspiring crap built all over our suburbs. i blame the towns that allow it and that write the building codes that to some extent dictate it.
Scooter, I don't think retail -- with the exception of BassPro and some minor niche food establishments -- will appear at the waterfront. Buffalo doesn't have the market to support it.
It doesn't take a developer to get out the story about Buffalo. That's a fallacy. Retailers parse demographics for every zip code nationally on a regular basis. The moment that conditions become favorable, then they are interested in a particular geographic area. Retail leasing departments are bombarded with slick brochures from developers on a daily basis and it has little impact. Benderson may have some momentum if it bundles a number of their properties nationwide to a particular retailer. (H&M did this with Pyramid in NY State.)
However, the overall problem with the design of this project is its emphasis on BassPro. All of the other buildings, from their placement to design, seem subservient to the BassPro castle. Obviously, BassPro doesn't want any real competition to the tourist dollar -- hiding a museum underground is the most blatant example -- but does the overall design have to enforce that idea?
and that is the biggest problem..if Bass Pro doesn't happen - NOTHING HAPPENS. The design is so dependent on Bass Pro that it's an everything or nothing scenario. Haven't we tried this before? Separate the project components so it could be flexible. With Bass Pro connected to everything our tax dollars are paying for, you have a house of cards ready to collapse as soon as Bass Pro balks. and back to square one we go..only one year from now. Just another year lost I guess.
I don't excpect more then some niche retail for this project. at least at first and maybe some soft good retailers that are more local or regional. and i'd be happy with that...after all it's been nothing but parking for decades.
having attended the las vegas retail convention, spoken to and worked with many retailers....i have found most retailers didn't have to many issues with our demographics. we have some pockets of very strong demos in wny (CBD not being one of them) most complained that its' expensive here. suburban retailers pay taxes of upward to $3 psf here. in many other parts of the US they pay half that. it cost more psf to build here then other places, getting town approval can take upwards to a year here for a simple dunkin donuts. you can get a building permit in the carolinas in days.
family video for example opened maybe 12 stores here. in philly they will open 25 stores. but there still here. will we get a tiffany's? no. can we get a BW or another higher end tenant....yes.
i just want a shovel in the ground. this isn't all getting built at once. much can change as we begin. providing our government doesn't get to invloved. give us a master plan, building codes and then move aside.
i respect your opinion paul....but i don't like the arguement that our demographics are the reason why we don't see more development. yes, they aren't as strong as the major markets.
I really don't care at this point -- build it, or don't. Whatever.
But think for a moment about how much time, energy, and money has been spent on this project. A project that is largely about creating retail. Not manufacturing, or infrastructure, or high tech research, or education -- retail! Making sure that cookjr (maybe) has "an unbelievable location to have a cup of coffee and read a book" has been one of the top priorities of our local government for a decade now.
How depressing.
Colin - I couldn't agree more, but I'd take this model if it actually got done.
I'd rather have the property, well maybe other property besides the canal, set up with modern analogs of Bethlehem Steel any day....but this blog has a hard time facing that issue. It's really filled with people who made 50g's or so on their houses (mostly on paper) the last 8 years who think there is actually a lasting demand for all of these nice things in Buffalo in the absence of real industrial growth and continued population decline. They view themselves as representative of the whole. Not so in my opinion, I doubt many of them have kids. But, I'm trying to get myself off "ignore" with them to see if they ever want to strike up that debate.
If what the Fed did today and proposes to do in the weeks to come reflates the value of real estate, this project could get financed and underway in a matter of months. Since Uncle Sam is now absorbing all the risk, what bank could care less if Canalside fails to lease out or opens in a bad recession? Stay tuned...
If Bass Pro doesn't come, let's build it anyway, and turn it into a giant naked colony. Leeds certified, to the curb, mixed use, ad nauseum...
Is this the Wake of Imagination?
Why is Buffalo settling for such an anesthetic experience (i.e., familiar suburban buildings and planning overlayed on our urban fabric). It doesn't take large sums of money to integrate a real Vision for this project. With all great projects comes a greater responsibility of our selected committees to bring a life-world that integrates new ways of experiencing the world. It requires a redemptive approach - a Practice that promotes a thoughtful/meaningful narrative(s) translated in a simple new story that speaks to the here and now. This does not mean re-making a nostolgic past - like those who reside all of their efforts and laurels on an "interpretation" of history as an arguement (historicism), that is supposely true, correct and immutable - that would be absurd. The real question for this project's planners is, "How does one enter into the history of the City?"
As currently presented this project is an orphan, a bastard child, conceived from a single viewpoint. The interrelationships between the buildings lack wonder, expression, and character due to the one homongeneous identity - that is all too familiar in our consumer world of fast-food architecture.
This process is fundamentally flawed. This project needs to be conceived with proper care, innovation, and technique - not reflecting the a single cone of vision. A new ethical and poetic approach is needed - that will offer a sustainable future to our children and generations to come. At this point in time - I recommend that ECHDC open up the various individual buildings, etc., contained within this Master Plan to a series of open design competitions to explore other "viewponts" to be integrated and break up the monotony of the sameness.
^ Sorry but the design process is closed. (they ran out of foam core board and glue)
There are two words in this topic, suburban and sameness, that reminds me of 'the sameness of the suburbs'.
That said, what sort of consideration is being given to attracting families who live in the area and keep them and their 'chicks' coming back?
Boat rides on the canal are a great idea. Will there be restaurants that feature kids' menues? How about outside and inside play areas? Strollers to rent? Diaper changing and kid cleanup areas?..
Another matter: Many structures such as auto dealership buildngs and retail stores are built in a deliberate, easy future tear-down design. (That wasn't true before the 1960s.) Buildings with too simple a design look tear-downable and not to be taken seriously for the long haul--these canal structures look less that permanent.
I wonder if asked, whether the project designers could tell you where the original Erie Canal canal entered this site.
Now come on NYC, what would they need to know that for??? This project is about landing a Bass Pro, not developing an "Erie Canal Harbor."
Heh, it is kinda ironic that the Erie Canal isn't even in the project.
^ I don't know, when it opens, I'd expect to see more than a few barge mules plodding in and out of the Cold Stone Creamery.
I, like NYC, would like the answer to that question. Just where exactly did the canal enter the site. From old pictures and maps, it appears to be in the right place, but?
The canal runs under the onramp to the Skyway from the 190 then underneath the Aud, as you can see in this overlay map which I have on my overlay website. Also note the Liberty Pole which is underneath the 190.
I thought the original location of the "Liberty Pole" was on the block of the Old Aud which is why it was torn down for construction of the Aud? So why isn't a replica of this famous Pole included in this "Old Buffalo" Design? I don't see it anywhere (or at least where it's suppost to be) in these photos.
That's a great Web site georgethomasafel. Are there anymore online like you? lol
What's under Buffalo is so very, very more interesting and would be so very, very educational and fascinating for all *chicks if our oldsters would head in a TRUE restoration direction. If children were a consideration their parents and other grownups and their money would follow in a much more lasting fashion.
Today, as most of it stands rotting away, Buffalo is only for a chosen few *eggwhites and *yokes.
Sonyactivision: If there was any serious intent to restore the canal, there would be reconstruction including replicas of the original buildings, life styles and those mules. This current canal restoration stuff is shallow and, if implimented, would get boring fast. There wouln't be much of anythng for serious tourists either. Why travel here to see 'not much' history?
Bringing the actual past into the present would create stable jobs while actually recreating an actual history--it needs hindsight, foresight and a futuresighting--Buffalo's "great thinkers" don't wear those "thinking caps" --thosee"caps" are too big for their heads.
*12/18/08 906a
Those are great overlays.
I don't understand why the design ignores the erie canal. Where it would join the commercial slip they put a big billboard for canalside with matching waterfalls. What is that?
Thanks crisa & nyc! There's a great collection of pictures and the story behind what was "the tallest flagstaff in the world" on the Western NY Heritage Press website which shows the position of the Liberty Pole at the corner of Main St. and the Terrace.
I just don't get it. Why didn't they plan to the sky. I imagine skyscrapers bigger than in Chicago, 13 of them, a canal bigger than Panama's so superfrieghters could fit through them, should they ever come to town, and a doomed stadium, maybe a new hockey arena, throw in a Perkins or TGIFriday's, and supertrain going to NYC, heated streets, gold street lamps, real 1700s structures made of mud, We need people who can take charge and make this happen. If we keep trying to be "practical" nothing will happen. I'll it takes is a plan we can all agree upon and it WILL happen. I say its time to start over again.
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