A Game of Chance?
It should come as no surprise that the parties on either side of the Seneca Buffalo Creek Casino issue are working through the courts this week to push each of their objectives forward.
In a statement from the National Coalition Against Gambling Expansion (NCAGE), based in Washington, D.C., NCAGE Chairman Dr. Guy C. Clark of Albuquerque, NM, stated, “Though it was well overdue, the federal courts last week finally drew a line in the sand beyond which illegitimate gambling expansion cannot cross.” Clarke went on to praise the Buffalo case and Judge William Skretny's decision, stating that it “should slow the process by which tribes have been expanding their land holdings purely for the purpose of building casinos and circumventing state and local laws across the nation.”
Though attorneys for Citizens Against Casino Gambling in Erie County (CACGEC) et al. are attempting to obtain a court order that would enforce closing of the temporary Seneca Buffalo Creek Casino, gambling and construction on the new building continue in accordance with remarks by Seneca Nation of Indians President Maurice John Sr., when he said the Senecas would conduct "Business as usual."
John made the remark in the aftermath of Judge William Skretny's July 8th decision stating that the Senecas were not eligible to gamble legally on the sovereign site due to the date on which it was purchased as well as the funds used to purchase it.
In his statement, Clark referred to the 1988 legislation allowing gambling as “one of the most misguided attempts at economic development ever contrived.” He went on to say, “This much-abused law has cynically given tribes a general franchise on an addictive, corrupting menace to the national economy and to public health. The act pitted a federal agency, the Department of Interior, against states and communities, frequently overriding even state constitutions and the fervent objections of surrounding communities. To tell Native Americans, many of whom have suffered in poverty for centuries, that their only hope of economic parity is to damage the health, economy and families of their neighbors, is among the most despicable things the U.S. Congress has ever done.”
On the Seneca side, National Indian Gaming Commission (NIGC) Chairman Philip N. Hogen has filed a motion in US District court to have Skretney's decision remanded. See the document here. http://nocasinoerie.org/legal/Cacgec-v-Hogen/MotionToRemand20080722.pdf Within the legalese, the following sentence may shed the most light on the objectives hoped to be gained from the motion: The fact that Section 2719's applicability to restricted fee Indian lands is subject to interpretation and reinterpretation demonstrates that it is ambiguous.
The NIGC's hope is to have the courts interpret the original law, once more and forever, in favor of the Senecas.
From a letter issued today by the Seneca Nation of Indians: The regulation provides that the statutory prohibition Judge Skretny relied on in his decision has no application to “restricted fee” lands, such as the Nation’s in Buffalo.
This is a significant development and one that, under well-established principles of law, fully justifies a motion for remand for NIGC reconsideration.
“A remand to the NIGC is the only constitutionally appropriate option available in these circumstances,” said Laurence H. Tribe, a renowned professor of constitutional law at Harvard Law School and a leading Supreme Court advocate who agreed to serve as chief legal consultant for the Nation in this case.
“No attempts have been made to evade the federal regulations governing the operation of Class III gaming on sovereign lands, and no attempts are now being made to circumvent this court’s July 8 decision,” the motion states.
“As this court is aware, the Nation has consistently argued in these proceedings, as well as before the NIGC and the Department of Interior, that [the law’s] presumptive prohibition on after-acquired gaming does not apply to restricted fee lands. Until very recently, the NIGC and the department took the contrary position, although never as the result of formal rulemaking, and the United States accordingly argued to that effect before this court. Now, however, the Interior Department has, as the result of notice-and-comment rulemaking, promulgated a final rule interpreting [the law].
“That rule, and the department’s discussion of it in the preamble of the rule, make clear that the department interprets the … provision not to apply to restricted fee lands.”
“Because these regulations are new and were not considered by either the NIGC or the court prior to the court’s decision, it is appropriate to remand this case to the agency for further consideration,” the motion argues.
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STEEL
Lawyers should be taught to speak English of some other language commonly spoken on the planet.
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SignWizard
It seems so me that if groups against the casino used their gobs of money on a tangible project like knocking down old houses and puting in a park or community center funded by the group, or a support group for gamblers who are already suffering that Buffalo would be a better place for it. I would be interested in knowing how much money these groups spend vs. what they actuall stop.
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Colin
Uhh, check the story on the Genesee block.
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PaulBuffalo
Signwizard, you're referring to the Wendt Foundation.
'Since its founding in 1955, the Margaret L. Wendt Foundation has given away more than $61 million in grants to organizations in Western New York. Without the Wendt Foundation’s help, there might no longer be a Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra, a Shea’s Performing Arts Center in Buffalo or the Hopevale Union Free School District. Wendt money has gone toward the restoration of Frank Lloyd Wright’s Darwin Martin House and Graycliff, the Roycroft campus in East Aurora and the building of the Buffalo Niagara Medical complex. It has funded hundreds of social programs through churches, the YMCA, the Boys and Girls Club, the Boy Scouts of America and the United Way.'
This is from a recent Buffalo News article.
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SignWizard
Sorry I'll give you the Wendt Foundation, but the anti casino type groups have been around long before they holped fund this lawsuit. It was one of these groups that stopped the zoo from moving. Hope about having a larger newer zoo in an area closer to the city core and spending money to do something with the new space that would have been in the Delaware park area.
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SignWizard
Sorry I'll give you the Wendt Foundation, but the anti casino type groups have been around long before they holped fund this lawsuit. It was one of these groups that stopped the zoo from moving. Hope about having a larger newer zoo in an area closer to the city core and spending money to do something with the new space that would have been in the Delaware park area.
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kooksapalooza
man oh man this is gonna turn into another 172 post thread about the same topic. Fact is we are gonna be getting nothing out of this deal right? well i was just wondering how many millions of dollars the sabres and bills give to the city? shouldnt we stop them from stealing our money too!? god knows i pump a lot into those franchises just by myself and i dont see them building anything on the waterfront either
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SignWizard
I love what the Wendt Foundation has done in the past I wish this money had gone toward a study to bring bring downtown Buffalo some sort of family attraction like Strong Museum in Rochester, Explore and More Children's museum in East Aurora etc...
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rubygreta
1,000 decent jobs with benefits in an area that is trying to arrest population decline. I will never gamble, but it's nice to know that there will be more entertainment options in Buffalo on a site that would otherwise be worthless.
And this is bad news?
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rb66
And the beat goes on.
The National Indian Gaming Commission will prevail and the $333 million development will continue to move forward.
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PaulBuffalo
SignWizard, the Wendt Foundation can't do everything. It's one battle at a time.
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newskylinebuffalo
How is this bad news? Better skyline appearance, more life to a crudy area, great location, more entertainment than HSBC arena, more than 1000 jobs, more people as citizens in Buffalo, and more. The crime in Buffalo cant get any worse so that isn't an issue. This is great that we got this great project being built in Buffalo. Bottom line: There is more GOOD than bad.
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SignWizard
PaulBuffalo I guess one thing i'm saying for the fisrt time I don't like the battle the Wendt Foundation is picking to fight.
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Andrew
no matter what you think the senecas are going to win. there is no question about it. stop wasting your time and money
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PaulBuffalo
Newskylinebuffalo, Crime, as a percentage of Buffalo's population, is actually relatively stable.
year / population / total crimes* / total crimes as percentage of population
2007 / 273,832 / 19,627 / 7.2%
2006 / 276,059 / 19,393 / 7.0%
2005 / 283,269 / 20,669 / 7.3%
2004 / 285,567 / 20,056 / 7.0%
2003 / 288,187 / 20,435 / 7.1%
2002 / 295,441 / 19,018 / 6.4%
2001 / 293,187 / 19,896 / 6.8%
2000 / 292,648 / 20,250 / 6.9%
1995 / 312,395 / 28,758 / 9.2%
1990 / 328,123 / 29,181 / 8.9%
1985 / 339,890 / 24,058 / 7.1%
1980 / 357,384 / 29,087 / 8.1%
* Total violent crime comprises murder, rape, robbery, assault, burglary, larceny/theft, and vehicle theft. Information sourced from the FBI Uniform Crime Report.
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SignWizard
O.K. so how do we get the Wendt Foundation (or other) to fund a study to bring a family attaction to downtown that would work for the city?
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Colin
You apply for a grant? Same way you get a foundation to fund anything . . .
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peripatetic
Why aren't developers, other than the Seneca Corp., allowed to build casinos in downtown Buffalo? Wouldn't the competition be good for Buffalo? If one casino is great, surely 2, 3, or more would be better.
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newskylinebuffalo
PaulBuffalo, Are you saying crime will increase with the Casino or not?
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SignWizard
What are the stats for the Falls over the same period where a casino was added?
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Colin
1. Thing is, I think people are right when they say this will happen regardless. I have no idea if Skretny's decision will hold up on appeal, but if it does the government still has to enforce the law. I don't see them having the stomach to deal with burning tires and snipers.
2. Does anybody know what happens after 15 years? The question has been asked a bunch of times but never addressed. Anybody?
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sally
Paulb - do you really consider a 15% increase in the crime rate over the past 5 years as stable?
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PaulBuffalo
Newskylinebuffalo, I'm not an expert on crime. I just analyzed FBI data that is available to anyone. Crime does usually increase when a casino opens. That's expected. Addiction and bankruptcies, too. My concern, if a casino is built, is how well will the police and social service agencies manage that increase?
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sally
Falls crime rate has fallen since the casino opened. Per an article in the NF Gazette they believe it has something to do with increased traffic. The police interviewed said the increased traffic put more "eye" on the street wihch discourages criminal activity.
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SignWizard
Interesting Sally TY
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newskylinebuffalo
PaulBuffalo, I see your point on how they will manage that. It gets to be a bit uncomforting not knowing the future of this project when completed.
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PaulBuffalo
Sally, the difference is less than 1%.
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sally
You are wrong. the difference in the rate is 15%. 7.2% is about 15% higher than 6.4%, that is the fact. In Buffalo in 2007 you were 15% more likely to be a victim of crime than you were in 2002. To put in in simple terms for you. If a sales tax rate goes from 4% to 5% the hike is not 1% it is 25%. On $100 you would pay $5.00 instead of $4.00 the one dollar is 25% of the $4.00. To the government their total receipts on the rate increase is 25% not one percent. If it was a one percent increase your new tax would be $4.04 and not $5.00
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sally
Paul you can even look at your raw data and see how wrong you are you show 19,018 crimes in 2002 and 19,627 in 2007 even though the population is down by more than 10%. Even if the population was equal you would still have an increase of 4% add the 10%+ population drop and you are back at the 15% increase in the crime rate.
19,000 times 1.04 = 19,600 + 10+% = 15%
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bc71
Sally, the difference is 12.5% ( .08 / 6.4 ). Doesn't really change the point of your post though.
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kooksapalooza
thats an entirely skewed way to calculate increases in crime
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wingking
One thing I have never understood, is why any casino is given a LIFETIME pass. Why can't we compromise, and have a 10 or 20 year lease and have the ability to pull the plug if it truly is bad for the community? In my mind, it's admission we're going to regret this "development".
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truestar
the city has been in decline since I graduated from high school in 1977 .... a small handfull of people with no vision whatsoever continue to play the spoiler....why are they afraid of a casino? maybe it is an idea that will stimulate growth and bring some life back into our dismal downtown... they just continue with the "not in my backyard" attitude ... the residents of our fair city are sick and tired of going in reverse! I am pretty sure Bugsy Malone got alot of grief about his little idea in the desert and that turned out ok.
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PaulBuffalo
Sally, I misunderstood your initial comment. I understand your math comparing crime increase/decrease from year to year. Do I consider a 15% increase in crime from 2002 to 2007 acceptable? No. Do I think the Buffalo the overall numbers are stable based on patterns? Yes.
Signwizard, it took awhile but I found and compiled the Niagara Falls numbers for you. (Sorry, but I couldn't find 2007 statistics.)
year / population / total crimes* / total crimes as percentage of population
06 / 53,008 / 3,431 / 6.5% 05 / 53,785 / 3,372 / 6.3% 04 / 54,093 / 3,608 / 6.7% 03 /54,450 / 3,870 / 7.1% 02 / 56,123 / 3,847 / 6.9% 01 / 55,695 / 3,600 / 6.5% 00 / 55,593 / 3,186 / 5.7% 95 / 60,406 / 4,590 / 7.6% 90 / 61,840 / 4,100 / 6.6% 85 / 69,422 / 4,710 / 6.8% 80 / 71,344 / 5,190 / 7.3%
* Total violent crime comprises murder, rape, robbery, assault, burglary, larceny/theft, and vehicle theft. Information sourced from the FBI Uniform Crime Report.
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kooksapalooza
you make a ton of correct and acurate points....but your last line is going to tnow urn into a debate about how buffalo will never be like vegas.....wait for it.....wait for it........haha
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B-LoLawStu
I generally like most of Skretny's decisions, but his decision in this case reeks of Judicial activism...
The part of the Motion I find most interesting is the seperation of powers aspect. Skretny should not have been reviewing a valid decision made by an executive agency.
To quote the motion:
The Supreme Court has held that “[g]enerally speaking, a court of appeals should remand a case to an agency for decision of a matter that statutes place primarily in agency hands.” INS v. Orlando Ventura, 537 U.S. 12, 16 (2002).... These well-established limitations on judicial review of agency decision-making are grounded in the separation of powers doctrine and the recognition that Congress has conferred certain discretionary decision-making powers to federal agencies equipped with special expertise. Cronin v. U.S. Dep’t of Agric., 919 F.2d 439, 444 (7th Cir. 1990).
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hodgepodge
judge skretny is one of the most over-turned judges in the 2d circuit (fed district encompassing buffalo); so, it is highly likley his decision will be reversed. but, then again, why do so many of you think the casino will do anything in buffalo when it has failed the city of niagara falls so miserably?
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sally
Kooks - it is not a skewed way to report crime growth, it is the accepted methodology. If thr rste went from 7% to 14% no one would say it increased by 7% would they? No everyone would say the crime rate doubled.
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sally
Paul B thanks for digging out the falls info. What it shows is that during the time since 2002 Buffalo with no Casino had a crime INCREASE of over 10% while during that same period Niagara Falls with a Casino had a crime DECREASE of over 10%. Thus it would appear that for Western New York casino's cause crime to DECREASE.
As the NF police said more traffic and activity leads to more eyes on the street and thus fewer crimes.
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KenS
...and in other "obstructionist" news, the preservationists want the facade of the Aud saved. Excellent timing just a couple of months before demolition begins.
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/buffaloerie/story/397914.html
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PaulBuffalo
Kooksapalooza, another way to look at Crimes as a Percentage of Population is this example: if you have 4 crimes in Niagara Falls vs. 500 crimes in New York City, which city is safer? It's New York City because the population is larger. The risk per person is less.
Sally, a Niagara Gazette article from 02-Dec-07, 'Violent crime has dropped significantly in Falls', credits Operation Impact, which links law enforcement agencies together with prosecutors and community leaders to attack crime, for the police success.
'Created in 2004 to assist the areas of New York state with the highest volume of crime outside of New York City, Operation Impact targeted 15, and now 17 counties, including Niagara. In four years the state Department of Criminal Justice Services, which oversees Operation Impact, has pumped $840,000 into Cataract City crime fighting.'
It will be interesting to see whether the techniques of Operation Impact can sustain long-term crime management. Because this required additional funding, will Operation Impact be discontinued if funding is eliminated?
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truestar
I frequent the Fallsview Casino a few times a year and spend the weekend....I do not stay locked up in the casino contrary to the obstuctionist view....I patronize eating establishments and the local shops....you cannot compare Buffalo to Niagara Falls NY....the politicians from there as well as Albany should be ashamed of themselves for that miscue. Here we have the beginings of a Waterfront, the promise of Bass Pro which WILL be a tourist draw ( I've gone to Auburn NY ) we have the architectural destinations, world class resturaunts, a world class art gallery and thriving art community and an influx of Canadians pouring in at the Galleria....if the casino planned for downtown is as wonderful as the Allegany how could it be wrong? One more brick added to the strong foundation of a quality community can only be a positive step....OBSTRUCTIONIST STEP ASIDE1
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Darrell
This site needs to create a separate section for this topic, it's just getting too old.
Other possibilities, Peace Bridge section, Bills Stadium downtown section, Skyway section, and new Wal*Mart construction section.
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magnum
If they Wendt Foundation prevails in stoping a casino, I truly hope they are prepared to spend some of their 120 million war chest to atleast create 500 jobs. If they had an alternative plan, I'm sure their action would be a lot easier to swallow. Right now it's either 1,000 new jobs or zero.
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sonyactivision
Dr Guy Clark is a dentist who crusaded tirelessly against indian casinos in New Mexico but ultimately failed to stop them. Albuquerque is now ringed by four very large casino resorts that attract tourists from all corners of the U.S. and employ thousands. That city didn't die and sink into the sand. In fact, it now has over 520,000 residents.
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Abbottroad
I understand that the 3 directors of the Wendt foundation are paid $150,000 a year each. If this is true where can I get a job like that. 150,000 a year for giving away someone elses money. To make it more inbred they get to pick who suceeds them if they decide to retire.
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PaulBuffalo
Magnum, considering the money that the Wendt Foundation has spent in the area since 1955, shouldn't they appreciated for the jobs and institutions they've already helped to save?
Sonyactivision, one reason that Albuquerque has grown is because businesses are attracted by the lower tax rates and reduced regulation.
Abbottroad, Margaret Wendt funded the foundation, established the guidelines and picked the trustees. Was she not entitled to use her money as she wished?
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NewBuffalo
what a negative waste of energy, the idiots trying to stop this should put their efforts into something constructive not destructive. This is a FREE SOCIETY and people should have a right to decide if they want to gamble or not. Whats next? shut down all the bars/liquor stores, let insurance companies only insure healthy people and drop the sick because they are losing money. This is becoming more like a comunist society every time these idiots and their lawyers want to interfere with a project that a small group wants to stop. GO SENECAS AND GET THIS THING DONE.....
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rb66
Colin says ~ " I don't see them having the stomach to deal with burning tires and snipers."
Are you serious? Snipers? Burning tires? That's an ignorant and disrespectful statement.
The Seneca Gaming Corporation has handled this situation and all other matters with class and professionalism.
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PaulBuffalo
Regarding crime and the Buffalo casino, today's Buffalo News summarized Governor Paterson's remarks during his visit. One comment was interesting:
'To ensure public safety, he said, the state will continue to maintain a law enforcement presence at the casino as long as it remains open.'
I wasn't aware that the state was doing this. Does anyone know if the state also provides a law enforcement at the Niagara Falls casino?
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peripatetic
To all those who feel their rights to gamble are being suppressed, why can't anyone else but the Senecas open a casino? Why are their rights to open a business not violated?
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sonyactivision
The people of New York decided against having casino gambling. The Seneca Nation is NOT the State of New York. If you want legalized gambling, ammend the State Constitution. Tribal affairs are a separate matter altogether.
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NewBuffalo
The SENECAS ARE NOT the only ones to have gambling, the STATE has been doing it for decades. when did the people vote on this? There are more people for this than not....
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Abbottroad
SGC pays for its own security. In Buffalo they have contracted with the city to provide 4 officers, which they pay for.
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PaulBuffalo
Abbottroad, thank you for the additional info.
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rb66
WOW! This is very interesting and disturbing.
In 2001, The New York Times reported that Harrah’s Entertainment Corporation was in negotiations to manage and operate three Western New York casinos for the Seneca Nation. Harrah’s has a long track record managing casinos for Indian nations, including the Ak-Chin casino near Kansas City, the Rincon Casino in San Diego, and Harrah’s Cherokee in North Carolina.
Harrah’s, the world’s second-largest casino company, is one of several companies that have made a proposal to the Seneca Nation of Indians, hoping the tribe will choose them to build and run as many as three casinos in western New York. Harrah’s says it has also discussed a Catskills casino with another tribe — it will not say which one — and scouted locations, armed with a feasibility study it conducted on the region several years ago.
Such casinos in New York would take some business away from Atlantic City, doubling the resolve of casino companies there to get a piece of the action in New York.
”If someone’s going to cannibalize us, I want to be the cannibal,” said Philip G. Satre, chief executive of Harrah’s, which has two Atlantic City casinos. He said his company was talking with the Senecas ”long before the bill was passed.”
So, is it possible that the Wendt Foundation's purchase of Harrah’s stock in 2003 precipitated an expected agreement with the Seneca Nation to operate casinos in Western New York and the sale of that stock been predicated on the announcement or intention of the Seneca Nation to operate the casinos on their own?
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rb66
http://buffalopundit.wnymedia.net/blogs/archives/6773
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nickatnite
rb66: "The Seneca Gaming Corporation has handled this situation and all other matters with class and professionalism. "
You think that blatantly ignoring the law by continuing to gable after a federal court said it was illegal is professional? I hate to see them get unprofessional...
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rb66
The Margaret Wendt Foundation, which has spent $2 million to protect the people of Buffalo from themselves by funding this lawsuit against the casino is one big, fat, 501c3 hypocrite.
Based on its 2006 IRS disclosure, between 2003 - 2006, it held $2.73 million worth of stock in Harrah’s. 58,900 shares, to be exact. It sold the shares in 2006 for about $4.8 million - a tidy $2 million profit.
One might say that Wendt’s investment in Harrah’s funded the Buffalo effort to destroy a Harrah’s competitor.
Harrah’s Entertainment, Inc. is the world’s largest provider of branded casino entertainment through operating subsidiaries. Since its beginning in Reno, Nevada 70 years ago, Harrah’s has grown through development of new properties, expansions and acquisitions, and now owns or manages casino resorts on four continents The company’s properties operate primarily under the Harrah’s, Caesars and Horseshoe brand names; Harrah’s also owns the London Clubs International family of casinos and the World Series of Poker. On January 28, 2008, Harrah’s Entertainment was acquired by affiliates of private-equity firms TPG Capital and Apollo Global Management.
Harrah’s is also a leading management company for several Indian Casinos, such as Harrah’s Rincon Casino & Resort in San Diego, CA. The Rincon Band of Mission Indians is the tribal organization affiliated with this casino.
Gambling. Good enough for Bruce Jackson’s kids (Jackson & Jackson - the lead attorneys in the lawsuit) to make money off of. Good enough for the Wendt Foundation to make money off of. Not good enough for you.
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MP1
Kooksapalooza:
Here's the economic impact assessment of the Buffalo Sabres (from 2003):
http://www.osc.state.ny.us/press/releases/feb03/22503report.htm
"In a typical season, the Buffalo Sabres contribute $65 million per year towards the local economy. With an average per game attendance of 17,500 over the last two years, gate receipts have totaled $31 million per year, and concessions have accounted for $8.6 million per year. Revenue from the sale of television rights and advertising account for approximately $4 million in additional direct income per year. This provides a total of $43.6 million per year in direct team revenues, not including post-season play.
In addition to the economic benefits derived from direct team revenues, there is an indirect impact on the economy from complementary spending, such as in local bars and restaurants on game nights, from visiting teams and fans staying in local hotels, and from spending on the part of Sabres’ employees. To account for these additional benefits to the local economy, we have included a conservative multiplier of 1.5. This brings the total of the direct and indirect impact per season to $65 million."
I believe $65 million is > $7 million from the casino.
FYI: the multiplier refers to how many times that dollar gets spent in the community. Industrial process are higher, some other activities are lower. So, for every dollar that you spend on the Sabres going to a game, local shops/bars get a boost and then their suppliers get a smaller boost, and so on accounting for 1.5 times the money spent.
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sonyactivision
rb66: but the Wendt Foundation's interests are principled and pure, after all, 'Since its founding in 1955, the Margaret L. Wendt Foundation has given away more than $61 million in grants to organizations in Western New York. Without the Wendt Foundation’s help, there might no longer be a Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra, a Shea’s Performing Arts Center in Buffalo or the Hopevale Union Free School District. Wendt money has gone toward the restoration of Frank Lloyd Wright’s Darwin Martin House and Graycliff, the Roycroft campus in East Aurora and the building of the Buffalo Niagara Medical complex. It has funded hundreds of social programs through churches, the YMCA, the Boys and Girls Club, the Boy Scouts of America and the United Way.' Now you speak of duplicitous double dealing? Sleep well my friend, and I'll chip in for the steel sheets.
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GDC
Doesn't the Wendt Fountain invest in Casino's from around the Country? How ironic that the very funding that supports them is now being sued.
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Colin
"Doesn't the Wendt Fountain invest in Casino's from around the Country? How ironic that the very funding that supports them is now being sued."
Yes, someone should alert Alanis Morissette . . .
"Are you serious? Snipers? Burning tires? That's an ignorant and disrespectful statement."
Yup, I'm serious. I've studied Native American history. I know what happens when there is a standoff between the government and native communities in modern times. Things have gotten ugly, and people have been killed. If the Senecas were to lose in court, do you see them simply walking away? That would be in contrast to their approach at every step in this process so far. An extralegal standoff is a real possibilty here.
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sally
For all of those that think government run or non-indian casino's are the way to go - check out the disaster that is going on down the pike in Pittsburgh. http://www.postgazette.com/pg/08211/900181-85.stm
BTW - the Pittsburgh Bass Pro was cancelled as well - reason? Insufficient governement handout offered.
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PaulBuffalo
Sally, what is the disaster? The project in Pittsburgh is being delayed. If there is a problem, there is an opportunity to re-open the bidding process. In addition, according the the article:
'The county will receive 2 percent of the casino's gross revenues as a host fee, an amount that could reach as much as $10 million a year. The city's share could climb to nearly $12 million a year by 2011.
Mr. Ravenstahl said he wants to make sure Mr. Bluhm and his group will have the financial wherewithal to complete a project Mr. Barden and his company, PITG Gaming LLC, could not.
He also wants to ensure they will honor the financial commitments Mr. Barden made -- $7.5 million annually for 30 years toward financing the new arena, $3 million to the Hill District, and $3 million to the Northside Leadership Conference. Mr. Bluhm has said he would honor those.'
It seems that Pittsburgh will have a better deal than Buffalo no matter who completes the Pittsburgh casino.
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sally
MP1 the Sabres draw primarily from the local market so there is not any real economic benefit at all. All the Sabres are doing is drawing business away from other forms of entertainment such as Shea's, the Buffalo Bills etc. And since the arena is designed to keep it's customers inside and offers so many dining possibiliteis from fast food to the Harbor Club they are competing with other local bars and restaurants. The whole design of the arena is intended to draw people in and keep them there to eat and drink thus hurting local business. How many local jobs have disappeared because of the out of town owned hockey teams sucking $65 million a year out of the local economy. And at the same time we are subsidising them by paying for their building. What a shame or is that what a sham.
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galaxyjay
Sally...Do you think cobblestone would be open if it wasn't for that arena? What about those jobs? What about the 1000's of jobs that the team and the arena create? Do they not matter...
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sally
Paulie: Apparently you chose to cherry pick the article. Reread the whole thing plus the related articles and you will see that it was precisely those terms that were agreed to that caused the lenders to not provide the construction loans to complete the project. The article states that unless construction restarts by Thursday the contractors can raise their prices. The article also states that rebidding will take 1 to 2 YEARS in order to do new background check on the bidders. Another article points out that if they don't do a formal rebid there are likely to be lawsuits over that as well. Of course once it is rebid all of the benefits you tout are thrown out the window and they are back at square one without the funding for the Penguins arena. That will once again make that team vulnerable to relocation. None of the terms you mentioned are part of the law - they were simply a part of the winning bid - any new bid would mean new terms. The new terms would definitely be less favorable because it has already been shown that with the current terms funding for the project could not be obtained. In addition the article state that Credit Suisse is likely to foreclose on the construction site throwing that into court for years. In essence they are pulling a Buffalo down there in Pa.
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sally
galaxyjay they are not new jobs - for each job the team creates other jobs in the community are lost. It is all local money money spent at an NHL game is money not spent at the local theatre's shops or restaurants. Thus those locally owned places have fewer employees than they otherwise would while the rich NHL players (and owner) take our money and leave town as soon as the season ends.
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sally
Pro sports stadiums don't bolster local economies, scholars say they are a bigger drain on local economies than Casino's.
http://www.news.uiuc.edu/news/04/1117stadiums.html
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sally
galaxy - I am sorry but I do not think the creation of one small hole in the wall tavern is sufficient payback to the 125 million dollar Arena subsidy from the taxpayor's
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PaulBuffalo
Sally, yes, I read the entire article. Why don't we see what happens in a few days? I doubt that their project will derail and I doubt the Penguins will relocate, but I can be proved wrong.
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Colin
A quick look at the Sabres website shows the team employs between 130-140 people, including players. Are there really thousands more who have jobs as an indirect result of the team playing here? That seems doubtful.
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reflip
PaulBuffalo,
I know you are against the casino...in Buffalo. And yet, you're talking about how Pittsburgh got a better deal. That strikes me as odd. If a casino is inherently bad - designed to do nothing but suck money and life out of the community and the people in it - then NO deal for ANY casino could ever be considered "good" - right? In which case, what's the point of arguing about who got the better deal?
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Colin
I don't see how that's odd. One bad deal can be better than another bad deal.
Some deals are better than others. Some deals' mothers are better than other deals' mothers . . .
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kooksapalooza
you talkin s*it about my mom colin?!?!
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jen
Five stars for that Smiths reference!
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PaulBuffalo
Reflip, I've said in previous comments that I'm not against a casino because I'm not against any heavily-regulated vice. However, I've been very critical of Buffalo's financial deal and I don't see it as heavily-regulated. I don't think a casino is worth it just because it offers jobs -- that's a poor deal. The Cobblestone area success doesn't hinge on the presence of a casino.
I am also concerned about the social consequences of a casino. All vices have consequences and most of the comments I've seen regarding that aspect have only belittled the people who would be affected. My view: if you gamble your money and life away, you must take responsibility; but, I also think that resources should be available to you to help get your life back together.
Regarding the Pittsburgh deal, it's better because it was the result of a bidding process. Granted, there have been problems. So what? Having lived in the great city of Pittsburgh once upon a time, I can say that the city is extremely resilient and seems to have planning ability in its DNA. (The city foresaw the demise of their steel industry and planned a new identity years before those jobs disappeared.) I think they will figure out a way to get their casino and keep the Penguins. Again, I could be wrong, but let's see what happens.
P.S. Thanks to Colin for offering a quick and succinct reply.
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