Buffalo Rising Online

Im not infavor of more parkland or the 300 car garage. Let them use the light rail and a parknride facility elsewhere....which would encourage them to stop off at more places before they return to their car.

I WANT THE FULL 1000 FOOT ERIE CANAL WHARF RECONSTRUCTED!

I think that the Great Lakes Museum is going to make a great addition to which I hope that the Zoo and the Botanical Gardens join in with the Historical and Science Museum on its creation...especially if there are plans for an aquarium with Great Lakes species.

Maybe with the Great Lakes Museum we can encourage the Niagara Falls Aerospace Museum (which is being evicted by the Senecas) to relocate and join our Air and Naval Museum.

Maybe with the Great Lakes Museum we can encourage the A-K to build a brand new museum on the waterfront instead of expanding further underground at their present location....which I think is a real loser of an idea. I think it would be awesome to have a new modern museum for their modern and contemporary arts and devoting their current Elmwood Ave Site for Pre-War art.

I also think that if they demolish the Aud then they should consider rewatering more of the Erie Canal Western Terminus deeper into the city and putting back the Liberty Pole. Though I would like to see the aud be converted to an office building like the old Post Office (ECC) and the Ellicott Square.

The Erie Canal Wharf District MUST find a way to integrate itself all the way to the DL&W concourse. Right now the DL&W stands apart from downtown...which acts as a major barrier between the Buffalo River and downtown Buffalo....rebuilding the 1000 foot wharf requires a complete rethink of the DL&W....and a complete rethink of Ojibwa harbor development.......perhaps by intergrating Ojibwa into Trenton and the other streets west of Niagara Street.

Lastly, Bass Pro and HealthNow and the proposed 40 story City Center are all at the beginning of Niagara Street...and Buffalo/Buffalonians would be WISE to completely rethink Niagara Street from ghetto village to CORPORATE GATEWAY. Niagara Street and the Niagara Expressway should be downgraded to a parkway within downtown and lined with corporate ofice buildings with river views.....such a rethink would completely change the west village, the westside and black rock...to a similar level of stability and demand as Delaware, Elmwood and Richmond.

Come one Buffalo....and Canal Development Corp...the 1000 foot wharf needs a complete rethink of alot more than just Bass Pro and Buffalo needs more than two streets (Elmwood and Delaware) stable enough for residential and business development.

PS and can we get rid of those low income towers and put up something fitting of a 1000 foot wharf instead of municipal ghetto apartments....

chris69, you don't want any of those poor or elderly people getting in the way of you stupid Canal Warf theme park?!

Good new for the waterfront. Lets see what really happens though and how long it takes [ lets hope the law suits don't start]. I do agree with Chris, the 60's high rise needs to come down now.

Mixed is the way to go, keeps the area alive at all hours, a new convention center should be the next anchor.

I pleading some ignorance here about what local preservationist want, but I like the fact that it's right on the water. In my mind, it's exactly where it should be. Every old photo I've seen of the waterfront, all the mills and such were right on the banks of the water. Plus, it will give recreational boaters somewhere to go, something to look at, etc... Hopefully some lame lawsuits will not get in the way (and delay the project even further). Good news for downtown Buffalo.

Perry - I think they want historically accurate vacant foundations.

I like the rendering. This is so much more practical than the Aud site for BassPro.

I used to live in the West Village, and I agree it needs help, but if you make this any part of a "package deal" you might as well just kill the project.

I think that's exactly the type of thinking that's been inhibiting development in the city over the years. Everybody wants a piece, and if they don't get it, nobody gets anything.

why does talk of "anchor tenants", "plans for canal side retail", "parking"/"parking"/parking", and "Benderson Development" make me queasy? Where is the park space, why are we paying a store $25 Mil to open up there, and putting parking garage right there is a killer. Never thought of myself as anti-growth but are we so bound to our commercial culture as to blindly sign off on anything involving "retail"? Also, nothing will work as long as the Skyway is still up there; is this coming down w/ the Aud?

I think having Bass Pro as the primary retail tenant will greatly help with luring other retail tenants to his area. It is a great fit for an area that has a large hunting/fishing/outdoors community. It will be a success for many years to come. To those who are opposed to it, give it a chance.

As far as the location goes, we don't need more green space. It is adjacent to the servicemans park and erie basin marina which provide plenty of park-like space already.

It sounds as if most of us aren't Bass Pro shoppers.....I don't think that matters.....we all want SOMETHING done with our waterfront. We all want to see development.....businesses and jobs. We need to look at this as a begining, more development will follow or should follow.

It' now our duty to stay on top of Higgins, Brown, Spitzer, ect.....backs....to make sure the ball keeps rolling. What about the skyway.....what about the DL&W.....what about this....what about that.

Bass Pro better be just a piece of the puzzle...because by itself....it will fail. If teamed up with a great lakes meuseum or a bicycle meusuem and other small retailers and such, then it will be a huge success.

If all we do is dig up our old canal slip....and not make further structual improvements, then our waterfront will fail. If we take down the skyway, if we put in new roads and pedestrian access then our waterfront will suceed.

THIS IS JUST A PIECE OF THE PUZZLE.

Milaukee went through this same process.....they started there waterfront with public money.....they tore down there own skyway that blocked there waterfront......what followed was over $250 million worth of private develpment. FACT!

If it can happen in Milaukee......it can work in Buffalo. This is just a begining.

I like the design, it seems to be very appropriate for the area. I'm all for critical mass and prefer to have the area built out instead of green space right there. I know the skyway is a big concern for a lot of people, but it is still very functional and does offer some dramatic and unique views of the city and lake that you can't get from the ground or a tunnel, obviously. I would prefer money get spent on constructing something new that we don't have yet as opposed to making something existing better. Beautify the skyway and make it a focal point. You could suspend a "herd" of large buffaloes underneath it stampeding into the city as a public art project. Convert the space between some of the pillars into pocket parks and you can still have greenspace down there. Lastly, my pipedream would be to convert/reuse the Aud site for an indoor water park, hotel, night club, other family entertainment venue to create another destination site that adds to the area.

well now they can concentrate on extending the canal into the old aud site.(they must do this).more dramatic and more serious.

I've sat through many enviro impact studies.....they take a LONG LONG time for any project.

But I would hope the state could help fast track this! Since they have so much invested in this project.

WZA,

Look Here: http://www.nylovesbiz.com/pdf/erie/Final_Master_Plan_Report.pdf

And Here: http://www.wgrz.com/news/downloads/waterfrontsketches1.pdf

I was in the Bass Pro in Fr. Lauderdale and it is a pretty amazing place. It was located on an intercoastal waterway. If the Buffalo store uses the canal the way it is depicted in the renderings it will be an awesome place to visit. Although it doesn't necessarily cater to the majority living down town it will definitely draw sportmen in from around the area. I am actually amazed that this went through. Buffalofalling--I don't think it is fair to compare this to the peace bridge since it is a state and private investment project which does not come with the same red tape of an international border crossing. Chris69--are your for real about the parking garage? Do you not see how "forcing" people to use the train DOESNT WORK (IE MAIN ST). THE PARKING RAMP IS COMPLETELY NECESSARY. I am actually pleased with this option. Now we will have BassPro AND the Aud site ready for development. One negative is the loss of business to Gander Mountain the Youngman Plaza. Otherwise, I think we should be excited about this. When folks come back for the NCAA tournament in 2010 there may actually be more things to do on the waterfront.

I actually agree with williamzamkaallstars for once, at least on the parking issue.

To those who sarcastically like to say "I would never go in there, it's a glorified bait shop", go to their website. They also sell clothing(mens & ladies) & footwear along with camping and other outdoor related items. I assume you will be able to get most, if not all of these same products at the store opening here.

If you still want to bury your head in the sands and say this is a terrible idea, get the pitchforks, torches, tar & feathers and give Tim Tielman a call.

WZA...I have those same concerns, along with the skyway painting which seems to occur every few years.

Removal of it after buildings are constructed underneath would be an interesting challenge.

Hoo....(I'm saving the -ray for after the environmental study completion)... About friggen time, love the drawings and the new location on the water front. Minus a little bit of green space for a huge draw like this is amazing... if this goes through its goiing to be a huge HUGE CATALYST for future development that won't require as much public financing. I like the comments about the outdoorsey nature of the area.... we've got some of the highest concentrations of outdoor sportsmen in the nation and the fact that you can either drive up to the store... take that lame ass train... or stop by while your boating is truly unique. Its that one word unique that makes retail developments and changes personas.

Parking garge... ehh. gotta have it, better 300 space parking garage then 1,000 spaces of surface lot they wanted with the previous plan on the old aud site. Demolish the aud... theres a thousand other buildings in our area that deserve saving before that block! It can be put to mucccchhhh better use!

Trains practically useless... ppl come park, walk around take in a muesum, hitt up a sabres game.... y hell u could even walk to the casino down the road.

.. finally some HOPEFULL arena side development!!!!!

Sky way has to go! No if's and or but's about it.

The most cost effective time to do it.....is now. Once development begins the cost to remove this pile of sh!t will go through the roof.

I would wager a bet......when the skyway comes down.....Tim Tielman will file a lawsuit to stop it..................any takers on the bet?

As for the parking garages........i believe a good quality architect can discretly incorporate them into the development plans....behind or underneath a hotel.....wedge under the thruway.....

i've seen one in denver, co.......the outer skin resembled the side of a mountain.....it was actually beautiful.......and didn't seem as if it would add tremendously to the cost.

I believe the whole plan calls for at least 3 garages through-out the project, federal funding is already in place for 1 of them.

Honestly, why are people complaining about parking garages? Would you rather have surface lots?

Aside from that, I was listening to the WGRZ stream of the announcement and as soon as someone asked Higgins about removing the skyway the stream died. He was saying something about getting funding right as it went out. So who knows, maybe it's further along than some of us would know.

Also the location of the central wharf is not under the sky way. Look at the links I posted above and you can see the outlines of the skyway compared to where these buildings are going.

never mind, just look at the new pictures they posted in the article. :p

I agree with Ken. If Tim Tielman will try his hardest to tank this project or any progress for that matter utilizing twisted logic.

Glad to see they used the building design to shield the public plaza from the prevailing lake winds. Make the whole project more viable for the winter months

We can have a park (I LOVE PARKS)

or we can build a waterfront that attracts people.....creates jobs....brings in revenue.

I'm not traveling the 15 minutes from my house to visit a park. Plus, incase you haven't noticed.....the waterfront is many, many miles long.....we will have many opportunites to create more parks and more open green space.........

and besides........as i look out of my downtown office....i see a whole lot of current "green space" along the water......and NO people, even in the summer.

Parks are needed and are very important.....so is a commercial spot such as canal side.

again, just one piece of the puzzle.

one more idea for the waterfront.

two large statue's of Higgins and Quinn.

to thank them for working so hard.

I can't wait to be walking to the store and getting pooped on by birds from the skyway as well as falling slush and snow being pushed over the sides of the skyway from above!!

That's the first thing I thought of, "the thing looks great, but the skyway will ruin it."

Tielman is a pompous self-annointed asshat. With 20 miles of unused waterfront why is this particular spot so important. And Robin have you been to the waterfront? go off furnham blvd to the small boat harbor. there are miles of parks and bike paths that have recently been put in place just south of downtown. Not to mention the Nature preserve on the other side. Beside, historical renerings of this area show buildings rigth to the waters edge, not parks or plaza's.

I live on the waterfront. You should see how beautiful it is here, and how neglected and overlooked it is. It is like a ghost-town in downtown in the evenings and on week-ends. Now, with the Bass Pro deal, there is actually something positive that is going to encourage people to come downtown besides the Sabres.

I LOVE it!

I personally don't care that they will have to tear the old aud down. It was too much of an antiquated building to work with. Not much value in my opinion in keeping a large, uninteresting building that no one wants to work with. A lot of criticism comes around the public dollars used for this project. To be honest, a lot of these dollars were earmarked for development anyway. Some of the come from the abandoned Adelphia project that never happened. It takes money to bring in money. Simple fact. And Bass Pro is just the starting point.....I'm hoping more retailers follow and are able to open nearby. All in all, I'm very optimistic to hear that the deal is signed!! Can't wait for this project to start!!

vavoom is a smart man.

and i like his use of the work asshat. tim tielman is an asshat!

I will not sleep until I see this project personally go up in flames. For that matter, I will not sleep until all progress halts in Buffalo. In fact, I will not stop until every business in the City of Buffalo is closed, boarded up, and condemned at which point I will use to stop it from being razed. We need to take a deep breath; this whole affair has just been rushed since day one back in 1992.

Tim: As a city of Buffalo homeowner, Shove it!

yeah the skyway is going to be a huge issue for anyone using the space under it. Image the weight and sound of snow crashing onto the roofs of these buildings. The piers do look cool but the place is quite noisy all day long.

As for the AUD coming down it still seems like a mistake. There is a large empty parking lot next to the AUD that could be developed, the Webster block is still empty, the Donovan building is coming down to be an empty lot, and now the AUD. There are no firm plans for any of these sites except to put a tag on them for future development. That means from the HSBC tower all the way to the HSBC arena and the Erie Canal terminus there is going to be NOTHING but parking lots and Highways, Look at a map and if we think the skyway is an issue now, its going to be evern more pervasive without the AUD. We are going to see and hear and smell even more of the skyway and 190 once the AUD is no longer shielding us.

Look at the aerial and imagine no AUD and what you will see instead: http://tinyurl.com/3ydfpb

Why don't we worry about using that 10 million to the get something built and developed on the other THREE blocks of the emptiness before we create another one. That whole area is going to be the ugliest place in downtown once the full range of highways are exposed. I am not against the overall demolition of the building, but it seems like it will do the area more harm then good right now.

Robin...there is PLENTY of park space at the adjacent veterans memorial park along with the Erie Basin Marina. In addition to this, there is public greenspace up and down the lake and river.

I think the store design is pretty awsome. It is a mix of old and new and provides access to the waterfront. As for the parking ramps, I totally agree, that the designs should offer first and possibly second floor activity such as more shops, restaurants, etc. As someone who works downtown and does NOT Drive, I, like many others have no need for parking. Taking a bus, train or walk will get me to the waterfront just fine. Bring in more mix of activilty. As for Tim Tielman's complaint...Are you for real? We have enough park like areas on the entire waterfront. WE WANT A MIX OF ACTIVITY ON THE DOWNTOWN WATERFRONT! If you don't like BUSY Areas (in a city) then focus on a more quiet area such as Grand Island or Tonawandas waterfront.

Lift bridges are much more of a historically accurate and much cooler looking than the skyway and they can be used by everyone and not jsut those privlidged enough to own a car.

As for the commuters into downtown, yes they should be forced on grade, with slower speeds. There is nothing justifiable about allowing them to zip through downtown at 60 mph and never have to stop. When you slow people down they notice things, businesses, streets, residences. They are more prone to use them along the way. Highways created and continue to promote sprawl, that 20 minute commute from downtown instead of being to Cheektowage and Kenmore now reaches to Amherst, Hamburg, Orchard Park. By increasing peoples commute times you actually encourage them to live closer to the city center, capitalize on existing infrastructure and keep the region more compact and stable in the end. That is why in Europe Highways are diverted around their downtowns into beltways, nowhere do you see them cut into and through of the center city. If you want a strong downtown you need to keep the population close to it, highways do not do that.

The Skyway needs to GO if we ever want to create a strong and desirable downtown again.

Any information as to what will be on the first two floors of the parking garage in the middle of the project? I think this is very much a decider as to whether this is a decent or bad project.

Is everyone here so uncritical? So easily fooled by a flashy rendering?

This plan has unravelled a community consensus vision for the Canal District of recreating a fine-grained, mixed-use neighborhood similar to the historic district that existed there. This plan is nothing more than a big box store attached to a massive parking ramp. It's terrible! It's nothing more than a fake historic strip plaza with an anchor tenant! How can all of you be fooled?

I've been sayng for years that Buffalo should have an aquarium at the waterfront.

I like the progress they're making so far. This along with the Main Street Bridge to the outer harbor should make the waterfront a very exciting place in the next several years.

Thank you Chrish, I didn't want to be the first to say it and get hit in the eye by the collective orgasm of people who criticized this type of project as the wrong one for years.

The rendering is a bit misleading because of the whole missing Skyway issue (aside from the supports). That being said, there's going to have to be some way of directing traffic to and from the southtowns if the Skyway is knocked down. I live in Hamburg and support the removal of the roadway but unfortunately, it is a heavily used route and the current set of grade-level roads that exist could never support all of the traffic on a daily basis. Take a look at the streets of South Buffalo when the Skyway gets closed due to an accident or inclement weather. It's total gridlock. Ideally, the Southtowns Connector that was proposed to go along the railroad tracks inland from the lake would be the best option.

Whatever your opinion of suburban living is, a lot of people live in the Southtowns and use the current network of roads to make their daily commutes. Ending Route 5 at Tifft Street and requiring all motorists to merge onto Tifft and Ohio Streets would be insane. I'd like to see Congressman Higgins actively push to get the entire highway along the lakeshore removed, but at the same time, lobby for a viable alternative to support the current traffic.

chrish...Does every square foot of the inner harbor development area have to be mixed use? To one side of the parcel you have commercial(HSBC, Buffalo News & the HSBC Atrium), another edge has residential(Marine Dr. Apts.) and other parts of the parcels contain parks(Naval Park & the Memorials Park). You also have the Arena and now what is being presented today. In addition there are 3 huge parcels(The Aud, Donovan Bldg. and parking lot across from the arena) still to be developed.

I really don't understand why "each and every bldg." has to be a combination of retail, office, tourist, etc..

So Chrish , what do you want? Only small botique retailers? You know like main place mall. Just small shops , which for the lack of a major anchor fadded into oblivion one by one, leaving a desolate shoping arcade.

The ECHDC has shot itself in the foot by bringing the Canal District redevelopmetn project back to square one. If they want to go through with this instead of the Master Plan defined in 2004, they're going to have to reopen the entire federal environmental review process, drag the public through a new series of hearings, inevitable lawsuits... it will be a mess. This Bass Pro deal already has terminal cancer.

I do have one thing that continues to bother me. Why are the ECDHC meetings not open to the public? I'm not saying that they have to be open to Q&A, but in a viewing capacity only.

The ECDHC can meet on how to spend our tax payer dollars at these meeting, but we can't attend. Go figure??

Woah, one thing at a time youngman, we don't have that $5billion pot of money quite ready to go yet....

Change nothing of the first buildings on the waterfront. Its monumental structure is reminiscent of some of the old architectural gems: most forgivingly the Richardson and Roycroft complexes. I still have some concern that they have not articulated a portion of the space properly. The centralized parking seems too contusive towards its surroundings and would best benefit the district if it were on the exterior (Webster). You travel into the space through architecture and the compartmental nature is just not heightened for basspro. Also I am not sure I agree with the plan of giving bass pro the whole waterfront vista , if they need more sq feet make a section of the building taller(like the corner facing hsbc arena-go sabres!). The rest of the commercial plan would be stronger if the corner towards the slip was allotted for some freestanding entertainment venue.

Finally the canal needs to be extended further into the plan and I completely disagree with replacing the aud with another hunch-backed vestibule for its harbor, it’s as much of a mistake as the skyway overhead. if anything you keep that space until we have the opportunity to elevate the drive through and still keep our view.

72 comments so far...this may be a BRO record...I love when there is good news.

A few comments, Please don't tell me those columns of the skyway are in the middle of proposed buildings. They will never tear it down if that is the case. Totally agree with the comments of fears of flying bird S*** and falling slush,,,as Rick Jennerat would say...Its gonna get ugly now!

We need to get funding for a bridge (I like the one in the rendering above), once we have that in place there will be no need for the skyway. Tear it down prior to construction.

I was on the phone with the IKEA telephone center the other day, trying to order something, and I asked the salesperson (just for fun), "When are you ever going to get an Ikea up our way", she responded that Upstate NY is the number one area that is begging for a store (informally from its telephone customers). Point is...if this area takes off maybe another retailer such as Ikea will follow.

I am not a big fan of spending $25M in taxes to prepare the waterfront and construct the buildings; but I believe the pay-off is there in the long-run. This project is coupled with the Casino project, just a few blocks away. If people are interested in developing the Cobblestone district, these are the projects that will do it. I look forward to having an additional 1,500 workers in downtown Buffalo; Bass Pro is known for higher than market wages due to the training, competence, and retention of their employees. At least this is the case in other markets. The $300K a year that Bass Pro will put directly into waterfront development will go a long way towards improving this vacant space. I hope that we are able to contain the dreams of removing all of the highway infrastructure, because the increase in employees may create unbearable traffic congestion in this area; especially during special events. This would be exacerbated by the introduction of hotels and a convention center. I welcome all of these; as long as we get past our over-reactionary selves and let progress prevail.

On that note; someone needs to introduce Tim Tielman to the 21st century. I can't believe anyone even gives this guy an ounce of credibility.

Under terms of the agreement, the harbor development corporation will invest $25 million in public funds to prepare the riverfront site and construct the shell of a three-story retail building, designed to resemble the original Central Wharf terminal that stood on the property in the mid-1800s.

Bass Pro Shops will spend approximately $15 million to build out the interior of the store and also will pay $300,000 a year in fees to support Canal Side.

Over the course of the proposed 20-year lease, those fees would total $6 million. And if Bass Pro exercises all lease renewals, that sum would climb to $15 million over 50 years.

The store, which will employ about 1,000 full- and part-time staffers, is expected to generate $3 million annually in sales tax. The agreement also calls on the harbor development corporation to construct a 20,000-square-foot Erie Canal Museum and a 30,000-square-foot public market.

I forgot to attribute the last 5 paragraphs of the post to the Buffalo News; other facts are from WIVB or other sources. Sorry about that.

Interesting to note that the earliest posts are largely negative while the latter posts are mostly positive, and then only mostly sprinkled with the same negative posters still trying to derail a great project.

chrish: Bass Pro is not a 'big box' store in look (they all have a unique design and local focal point and flavor to them) or appeal (the demographics are those with disposable income). Learn the term then apply it to Wal-Mart or Sears.

Bass Pro design: What could be more appealing than to hide retail behind an actual recreated period building. "Yes" to sentiment that something is better than nothing when it comes to our waterfront--because NOTHING is there now...and this development is a catalyst to much more development.

Tim Tielman: Shut up, just shut up.

Aud: I would prefer to preserve and enhance it into a mixed use primary parking garage (small retail around lower perimeter with parking floors above). But...if that is not economically feasible then bye-bye. Loved the Oranges, but we are making memories across the street now.

Skyway: Higgins IS pressuring the State to rethink its usefulness. With Brian's track record, he will get it done. (And "yes" I think the supports without a roadway in the renderings are cool too, but really not worth celebrating, let alone lighting...or keeping.) Fuhrmann can be used by Southtown residents all the way up the Outer Harbor and then a to be built tunnel or lift bridge could get them over to Erie St. and then on to all the arterials like Niagara, Delaware, Church, I-90, to get to/beyond downtown. The Fuhrmann is going to be rebuilt and changed to a parkway starting this season.

Waterfront Park Space: If you've done your homework you know that the Canal district was nothing but industrial buildings tucked tightly and vertically into the grid. So why the heck would putting "parks" where none ever existed be authentic or preferred? If you want waterfront parks go south to Tift Farm area or north to the Marina or continue up to Niawanda Park. Still not satisfied?--you'll be happy to know the water side of Bass Pro WILL have a 50 foot wide promenade to enjoy being close to the water.

In-Water Fountain Park: Did anyone else see and appreciate the water spout park in the water just beyond the Bass Pro dock? Nice touch.

Bottom-line: This project is creating a mix of viable, job producing, tax-paying, interest building developments/jobs this community desperately needs and wants.

The project is creating a lot of sub-standard, non-union, minimum wage retain jobs that will perpetuate the decline of Buffalo. We need GOOD jobs in Buffalo, ones that people can spend their lives in, jobs that pay high enough to support families and build communities. Good paying jobs with benefits and pensions, the type of jobs that built Buffalo and made it a great city. Some people say that Buffalo is suffering because it doesn't have enough people, or because there isn't enough retail or office workers, or because there is too much crime. The problem is that we got greedy and lost the industrial backbone that ran through every street and neighborhood. We broke it and it isn't coming back. We need industry and good paying jobs if we want to see Buffalo Rise again, these low quality jobs are a slap in the face to the hard working people of Buffalo.

Strong industry and strong labor brings people, people bring money, money brings retail. It is that simple, no shortcuts and no excuses!

We need the parking ramps if we want this to work. There are still a lot of people who will hesitate to come downtown for fear that their Hummer will disappear if left more than 100 yards from the front door of Bass Pro. There is also the matter of picking up larger items, people need access because portaging your new canoe or kayak for 3 blocks to strap it to your car isn't going to cut it. We are already at a disadvantage with three larger Bass Pro stores within a couple of hours drive in three directions; let's not hold it up because some of us don't like the look and feel of parking garages. mmmmkay?

My question is more of planning and design of this building, since BassPro has control of fitting out the shell, will there be only one entrance? What happens to the facade along the prominade and other places, if there are no entrances or shops, then it will be dead. The design would be great if basspro could fill the interior of the building with small shops lining the outsides, facing the prominade and streets. False frontage that looks like buildings would be a failure, as there would be no function and no traffic circulation created.

Also, for everyone who loves to hate Tielman, he is a resident of buffalo and if not for him and others of his ilk, there would be no Commercial Slip. As it was said earlier, there was a plan created for the waterfront and him mentioning that this project does not fit the plan is not obstructionist, it is reality. EIS and other permitting and planning may have to be redone if this does not fit the master plan.

EXCOP, why the EX. Did you quit? were you fired? or were you lucky enought to retire. Did you ever work in heavy industy?. As someone who worked for a short time in Bethlehem Steel I can tell you it was not as glorious as you make it sound. The pay was good, but the price was high. Few men in the neighborhood where i grew up lived long enought to enjoy their retirement.The toxins they were exposed to , like asbestos, they carried home on their clothes, and to this day the land where they worked is so contaminated, the cost of remediation is prohibitive.

Hurdles this project must overcome:

1. An active citizenry has been barred from giving input. The authority now faces the challenge of attempting to get a rubber stamp of approval from a public that's been shutout of the process.

When will officials realize the public can be a powerful advocate for a project if it feels it has a sense of ownership over it?

2. Reopen an already completed EIS. Remember the "exploding stones" that caused lawsuits and eventually a well crafted masterplan? Good luck on reopening this can of worms.

2. It’s a nonbinding predevelopment agreement. BassPro can pull out at anytime. The company has yet to put a dollar towards this project. How serious are they?

3. $25 million given to a private company to build their own store. Explanation not needed.

4. Millions given to Benderson Development on a no-bid contract. There are lots of local developers who’d love to get a piece of the action but have been locked out completely. Hailiburton anyone?

5. Who fills the large box store if BassPro leaves? Small storefronts are much easier to replace.

This proposal will likely crumble because of its own weight and face the same fate as Opus/Uniland and the Outer Harbor.

I decided to post this under my real name instead of the alias that I have been using for the past year.

My wife and I had an interesting conversation about this project this morning. We have lived in Amherst, and then in North Buffalo, for over 25 years. We were both born and raised in other cities, but decided to stay after graduating from UB. We both fell in love with the city and have given a lot back to our community through church, work, school, and volunteer efforts. We both have a strong desire to see Buffalo finally turn the corner; however for the first time in a long time our conversation was decidedly negative in tone. We see this fantastic project about to launch on the waterfront, and our mutual response was "I'll believe it when I see it". This surprised the both of us; as we are typically very optimistic and positive people. My wife hit the nail on the head when she explained that in 25 years she has gotten her hopes up for projects that never materialized or were thwarted by a single-interest group or protest. We see change in small areas all around the city, this is great for everyone; but sort of like the Bills or the Sabres, we can't seem to pull it together to win when it really matters. I think this is it for us, our taxes keep increasing and our services keep declining. For the first time in over 25 years we had a serious conversation about moving out of Buffalo and out of the state.

I am not sure that I can take these mind games much longer, I really hope that we pull this off for the sake of all Buffalonians.

The Bass Pro design looks great! The only thing I'm not too thrilled about is the massive parking ramps surrounding it. If you want downtown to be VIBRANT, you cannot have upfront parking next to every new business. You have to encourage people to ride the public transit/bus, walk, and park in a near by ramp or street space. That is how you create a busy street life. With more people that are walking downtown, the more retailers want to be there. As for those who want another "public meeting" on this and other projects....it's public meetings that have been stopping past ideas....Peace Bridge, Main Street Re-opening (will it actually happen this year? or next year?), Boutique Hotel on Elmwood, 50 Story tower on the Waterfront (now a two story single restaurant-Shanghi Red's), and the list can go on. Point being, if we want to GROW and prosper again, we have to have a team of people in charge of developments and approve or deny based on an over all development guideline which I don't believe even exists right now. Have one made, have the team work with developers, marketers and JUST DO IT! That is how areas GROW....Can you imangine NYC Holding "public meetings" for EVERY new Development idea? New Skyscrapers wouldn't be going up as fast as they do, the subways would not be as safe as they are today, and so on. In Buffalo, we focus on too many "Studies" and "what if's" instead of "JUST DO IT"....we've been studying for decades, we should be masters at what can work and what can't by now.

Public meetings have nothing to do with project roadblocks and New York City has an extensive community board review period that every project has to go through never mind the whims of the planning commisioner where it could take more than a year just to get a meeting scheduled. Also, the Main Street project is being held up by Federal Transit Administration review... nothing local.

right on about development guidlines though...

EIS, public comment and other requirements are being attacked, I love it how "public comment" is attacked on a blog, come on here and say things where it doesn't get back to anyone, but real public comment ruins everything obviously. Also Buffalo doesn't hold a monopoly of citizens and interest groups providing comment, in Philly projects have been amended due to residents concerns, what do you know, in these public meetings the people actually have a voice!

MRodgers, with your neighborhood triple listed, there is not much left for preservationists to do unless there are plans for demolition of contributing buildings. As far as this case, he's not arguing a preservation point, he's arguing on procedure and planning. Unfortunitly the preservation non-profits cannot take-up every battle, though I'm sure if you talked to Tim he would try to help you.

nick, I was involved in a preservatin effort that was started by Judge Henry J. Nowak called the Neighborhood Preservation Collaborative. Tim Tielman was handed the Chair of the Neighborhood Awareness Committee. One of the charges for the committee was to create booklets that provided information about neighborhoods in historic districts. He did nothing and then when the collaborative held a event to raise funds for the organization, he did nothing. Tim Tielman only rises to the occaision when he thinks there is something in it for him. As far as MRodgers is conserned her group does more to preserve her and other neighborhoods with no funding than any other I have seen in operation. I recently went to one of their meetings and was amazed at the number of talented people in the room with concern for their neighborhood and others. I have personally witnessed im Tielmans disregard for historic neighborhoods unless it can make a headline. There are many people here in Buffalo that just do what is needed to make sure preservation continues but are less inclined to push for the press and less inclined to threaten lawsuits and those are the people that are going to malke a difference. These are the people who make sure things don't go to far before then end is to near.

I'm going to say that show this be built as it’s designed now then GO BUFFALO!!! Finally a national retailer downtown and a cool one at that. I went to a Bass Pro in Charlotte and it makes Dick’s look like the Dollar Tree. It’s an amazing store that fits on the water. This design is great. Finally we have something for our visitors to see when they go to events at HSBC Arena. From my estimation when this is going to be constructed so will 50 court St, Buffalo City Tower, The Federal Courthouse, Statler Renovation, Nursing Home on the 33, and the condo tower on the water front.

*** THERE WILL BE CRANES IN BUFFALO*** LOTS OF THEM***

and not for building roads! What an exciting time the next 5 years should be. Stay positive people and most importantly STAY IN BUFFALO!!!

Typo... I'm going to say that *should* this be built as it's designed....

Thanks for being such a great cheerleader Andrew.

The next 5 years will be an awesome ride.

Daniel Sack......what a sad and horribly negative attitude you have.

Along with BP, there will be a 40,000 sq ft market for smaller, local stores. If you look at any successful retail development....its a big box as the anchor and then small stores open up and feed off it. Without one....u dont get the other.

Why dont you try to find some positive in this......development, new businesses, tax revenue, jobs, redevelopment of a long useless area, tourism, ect, ect, ect....

ya, stores close.....and stores open up as well......should BP close many many years from now....we'll have the infrastructure in place....roads, utilities, buildings....it will make it far easier to land a new tenant.......

Wow, what a great design. If this happens, it will truly be a "rebirth" for the area. I was born in '83 and as a young Buffalonian living in NYC I can say that it is ridiculous how long things take to develop in Buffalo. On a side note, I think the only major development I've seen in Buffalo in my lifetime was HSBC arena, which is sad, because I've been in NYC for a little over one year and can tell you of countless development projects that I've seen thus far.

I don't think we need to focus on tourism, and bringing tourists to Western New York, because in all honestly, nobody that I have ever met down here is even interested in coming upstate because of its twisted reputation. It saddens me when I hear this. I think the primary focus should be to bring back the Buffalonians who gave up hope and who NEEDED to leave the area because of missed job opportunities and bad politics. What they need to do is show the people who left that there is reason to come back. There are alot of loyal citizens who left the city and are dying and itching to move back at any chance or proof that the city will be what it once was (myself included). I say build the waterfront, build the city tower, build the parks along the Black Rock and Niagara River, and fore Pete’s sake, build the friggin PEACE BRIDGE. Ignore the nay-sayers and show the people who gave up that there is still hope, only then we can rebuild a foundation and a reputation that can bring new people and tourism into the region.

Something to think about:

Freedom Tower- terrible circumstances of which to build, plenty of criticism, the foundation is currently being poured.

Why can't we put up a couple of buildings on the waterfront together without it being the "end of the world".

DanielSack-

You are right - we have no way of knowing how long Bass Pro will remain in operation. Twenty years from now, they may go out of business or announce their intent to close the store. BUT, should we actually stop development because of something that COULD happen twenty years from now? And who is to say that if we develop downtown to a point where businesses and retailers WANT to locate there, that Bass Pro vacating their store would not be an opening for another retailer or other business to take it's spot? Stores do come and go, but if developed and marketed correctly, there is no reason that a retail center should not live on. As a prime example, look at the Boulevard Mall. Since it's opening in 1962 it has lost every single retailer that was an original tenant as well as most of the stores that were second and third generation tenants - large and small. Kobacker's, Sattler's, Jenss, Krasner's, Reed's, Sibley's, Kaufmann's, Kleinhans, etc. all had locations at that mall at one time. The mall has faced competition from Downtown, Galleria, Eastern Hills, Summit Park, etc. over the years but yet continues to be one of this regions strongest retail centers. By the way, I am in no way implying that the area surrounding the Bass Pro site should be developed in a manner that resembles a suburban mall. I am just using that as an example that shows how dynamic retail is and how a good retail site is always in demand.

For too long, the people of Western New York have been regretting the decisions of the past (UB, Kensington & Scajaquada Expressways, Rich Stadium in OP, etc.). We have been burned so much that it is in our nature to find something wrong in almost any new proposal. Is this a perfect proposal? Of course not - but please tell me one proposal that would satisfy every single entity in the community? It just isn't going to happen. There is absolutely nothing on this site right now, we are losing no historically relevant structures at all. We need to take chances on things once in a while. Life can't be planned out perfectly.

BuffaloinNYC-

I totally agree with you. I was born in '80 and have lived here my entire life. In that time the only major developments that I can recall are the new airport terminal, Crossroads/Marine Midland/HSBC Arena, and the Galleria being constructed in Cheektwoaga. It takes far too long and far too many studies to get anything built around here.

This is the kind of thing that just frosts people our age and gives them more ammunition to leave. It's horrible that half of my friends from high school have left for "greener pastures," giving up everything that they love about being here (family, food, sports teams, friends, etc). Many left for college and decided to stay or found jobs elsewhere that they could not find here, but the number one reason that I get from them as to why they do not even consider moving home - the WNY attitude. There is a lot of life and activity in this area, but there's this constant pesimistic, stuck in the doldrums attitude, that is ingrained into every aspect of the culture in this area.

We see new development as bad because it does not accurately reflect what Buffalo was 100 or 150 years ago. We use any example of development from the last 50 years to justify our attitude about future growth. We elect the same politicians over and over again somehow expecting different results, but always getting the same. We actually come down on companies that look to expand here: Healthnow's HQ is out of place (it is different, but would you rather see the 1300 employees in Williamsville?), Bass Pro is nothing but a bait shop, and on and on.

Should we accept anything? No - that results in poor decisions like those that landed UB in Amherst and so on. But should we really fight everything and perpetually keep Buffalo in a state of being a dying, rust-belt city?

Let's see if I understand this correctly. Sooner or later all stores close, so let's not consider any large retailers at the inner harbor. REALLY??

Did you consider that IF they ever closed down, that the one large space could be divided into 3 or 4 smaller spaces if they could not find a new tenant for the entire space?

If Bass Pro can have a successful 20 year run at the Inner Harbor I'd be thrilled!!

PresAnon, You've got Tielman's number correct!

MRodgers, She rocks. Need to clone her and cast her! (Hey, sorry, this is a BP posting you know.)

DanielSack, Adjust your beenie so it's not so tight. Not only do you dwell in one of the biggest negative "realistic" universes around, you fear that a store is going to close??? Seek help.

Daniel Slack i'm 20, lived in the Buffalo area all my life and i've never even herd of 3/4 of the stores that you mentioned so what does that have to say for how often big stores close up shop. And look at the great point made by buffaloinnyc, "Freedom Tower- terrible circumstances of which to build, plenty of criticism, the foundation is currently being poured." Now I know that we never compare Buffalo to NYC however we should look up to them in some aspects. I find it amazing that this tower is being constructed under the circumstances. Lets look up to them for that.

Since the 20-somethings are announcing their ages, I'll go with the I'm 24 angle. I'm one of those who no longer lives in buffalo, and will probably seem like a heretic but I encourage my friends to move other places. This is not because I don't see promise in buffalo, but that people need fresh ideas, and often only appreciate the city after they've left.

Also, while HSBC arena and other silver bullet projects get all the news, don't let the lack of them paint the picture that nothing is happening here. Conversions and new construction in downtown are much better examples of economic rebirth than the silver bullet projects. Headlines don't always mean its best for the city, see the empty lots around the arena, wasn't it suppose to be the catalyst for the cobblestone district's rebirth?

I am not sure that I love the idea of Bass Pro being on the waterfront parcel. I don't see any reason the same style of design couldn't work on the Aud site, since it is coming down. Here is the big part, though...........I am so pleased that something is apparently happening. This will certainly generate other investment (unlike a casino that is, by design, created to be self contained and NOT spur outside development)

KUDOS to all who worked hard to make it almost a reality. I also agree with alot of people who say... kiss the Skyway good bye. If Congressman Higgins can pull that off, he'll get my vote for man of the decade.

DanielSack - you just summed up the thing we are all talking about: "Sure, as one poster mentioned the Bass Pro space could be divided for several smaller stores or another large retailer might move in. But it's not that easy or fast. Look how long it has taken just to get to the point we are at now."

It takes this long to get anything done around here. It doesn't normally take this long in other places for development to occur. There is no reason that it can't be "that easy or fast." Like I said earlier, if this entire area downtown is done right, other anchor stores would jump at the chance to fill Bass Pro's space if for whatever reason, they should close in the future. Let's make our Downtown an area where retailers and other businesses WANT to locate to. If we ever got back to that point, you would not have to worry about empty storefronts. I still can not believe there's a suggestion that we should possibly not do this project because of the fact that the store might close years down the road. Yikes, at least we could say we tried.

The wgrz website now has the pdf's of the proposed site layout...

http://tinyurl.com/yvhfrp

As a dedicated preservationist, I have to bite my tongue as I write this, but I'm cautiously in favor of this proposal. I think in general, Buffalonians have a phobia about buildings next to the water and insist that everything should be greenspace. Actually, I find the juxtaposition of the human built environment (buildings) next to something wild (the water) to be quite dramatic and attractive.

What worries me about all these posts is that people are far too quick to accept this proposal with open arms without apparently asking some basic questions. The drawings do look lovely, but what will the space feel like once it is built? It could be wonderful and active and vibrant or it could feel like some phoney "movie set" Olde Canal Towne, USA theme park. It comes down to the detailing, the spacing, the doors, the windows, the type of brick and stone used, etc. The involvement of Benderson Development, which seems to specialize in low-quality strip malls, frankly, worries me.

I'm also concerned about the vitriol spewed towards Mr. Tielman. He's dedicated his life to making our community a better place. You may not agree with his vision of "better" but he'd honest and hardworking and not getting rich doing it.

One thing that no one has brought up in any of this is the Naval and Serviceman's Park. No disrespect intended towards our veterans, but I've always been bothered by the presence of the naval ships and other various war paraphanalia. Except for the Sullivans, these ships have little connection to Buffalo, were not built here, did not see service here, and Buffalo never had a naval base. Surely, there are other areas (i.e. our soon-to-be-accessible Outer Harbor) of our waterfront where this type of museum is more appropriate. A lake freighter, schooner, or canal boats are what really belong in the inner harbor. Buffalo's maritime heritage was commercial and industrial, not military.