Buffalo Rising Online

I think it would be interesting to see a charter school enrollment graph for the same dates

On quick look, it seems reduced enrollment shown in those charts is very close to Census-estimated population loss, also considering charter numbers.

First notice in both charts the right side is predictions of next 10 years. Actuals are left side to around the middle. They made year labels at bottom so small. Those are really bad presentations.

Adding the year 2000 numbers from both charts, total is around 46,200 (45,902+314). And around the middle, in 2007-8 it's around 41,500 (34,990+6,534). That's reduction of about 4,700 or roughly 10.1%.

Census count in 2000 was 292,648 and in 2007 their 2007 estimate was 257,758 from census.gov

That's estimated population reduction of 11.9% over a similar time frame. 10.1% fewer students (counting district and charter) is pretty close to the 11.9% estimated population loss as a whole. Maybe young adults without school age kids yet might have left town in slightly higher numbers, making population loss the higher of the two, or maybe there's other factors. Anyway the percents are close.

Doesnt matter I applaud this! This is wonderful news!

However this was not used to full effect by Williams the super-intendent.

Williams knew he had to close these grammer schools and Williams knows that he has to close high schools yet he put the entire school district and city through the machinations of a battle with the teachers union over healthcare.....laying off teachers and then rehiring them with backpay.

Everytime rumore opens his f-n mouth, Williams should close an f-n school because thats the only f-n thing Rumore understands. Rumore is an f-n bully and thats how you deal with bully's.

If I were Williams I would have Charter, Parochial and Private schools on speed dial and everytime Rumore opens his mouth I would tell those non-public schools he has parents and students shopping for a new school.

Everytime the teachers re-elect Rumore, I would announce a school closing.

Furthermore state and federal law says that everytime a public school fails to serve a students needs they can sue the school district to go to a non-public school. If I were Williams everytime Rumore opens his mouth I would send out a mailing of attorney contact names and addresses to sue the district to remove their children from public schools. If I couldnt do it personally as part of the school district then I would have an unrelated 3rd party do it on my behalf.

and I would do it until there are more students in non-public schools than public schools.

Thats how you deal with liberal communist zionist mafioso unions.

Good job Loiuse. The student population is indeed declining irrelevant to charter/private,parochial school considerations. It has little to do with politics as it is just what it is. Period. Sorry BW. Liberal zionist mafioso unions and that incredibly ubiquitous and powerful Teachers' Union (You know that one that was powerless to escape a multi year wage freeze and unable to negotiate anything better than an inferior health insurance) run by Blabber Mouth Powerhouse Bully Runmore play no role in this naturally occurring declining enrollmemt. You are aiming your paranoid fascist venom at the wrong people and issues. City declies>business declines>jobs decline> families decline>scool populations decline. Store your hate sauce for an issue more deserving while trying not to swallow!

Sorry to inform you that there is no sinister plot of collusion and conspiracy secretly worming it's political agenda into this scene.

Here's an intellectual teaser for you. As the unions Buffalo was once so famous for were broken. When they left, so did industry, the quality jobs, and ultimately(dre I say it) the quality people who made the city great! I had to leave. You had to stay. That's your lot in life.

Sorry, AtwaterLouse: Shame on my spelling!

Pegger- I strongly disagree with your statement " the quality people who made the city great all had to leave". I would argue that Buffalo is home to many of the best and brightest in all of WNY. (City Honors is one of the best schools in the country). Those of us who have stayed and work to improve our communities are more likely to understand the the complexity of the issues of poverty, race, etc. that so many armchair quarterbacks on this blog love to rant about.

Look its a fact that over 60-75 cents of every public school dollar does not go to teachers and students but to various forms administration, various failed programs for social engineering instead of teaching, restructuring, bloated work rules demanded by unions and bloated benefits, etc etc etc.

Its a fact that public schools fail in every category compared to less expensive private, parochial and charter schools that have more accountability.

and as far as Rumore....one only has to listen to his diatribes and teachers union lawsuits to get tired of teachers, public schools and unions.

Declining population....yes...but also rapidly increasing charter school enrollment. Whatever population is returning to Buffalo is doing so without sending their children to public schools.

Whatever population is remaining is opting out of public schools!

The only way the middle class and families will return to Buffalo is if they bypass public schools and thats what those charts show.

So Williams should get the message.....everytime Rumore opens his mouth I would close a school and fire the teachers until that guy shuts his mouth.

Buffalos only potential to attract jobs and employers is to have functioning govenment and constant battles between the various unions and the various agencies of the school board or government wont accomplish that....

Throughout the nation....the only unions left standing unbroken are civil service unions because they are paid via taxes approved by the legislature. Its no co-incidence that the most liberal states have the highest taxes and matter of fact...they have the same or lower quality services as states with less taxes.

Its also no secret that high tax liberal communist states with strong control over government by civil service unions (communists) like NY and CA are also bankrupt, insolvent, have the most epensive and WORST schools and terrible job creation rates for the entire state!

Please..Id disband the public schools, implement school choice and school vouchers or go back to the original bold plan of convertng all public schools to charters..then dump tar on Rumore and make him walk down Main Street until he has left town.

1. Private and parochial schools pick and choose which children they'll try and educate. It's hardly surprising, then, if they end up with good results.

2. Charter schools educate kids whose parents were unwilling to settle for the default. It's a student population with more involved parents than the average public school. So again, it shouldn't be a shock if some of these schools do well.

3. All that said, plenty of public schools do very well themselves. Schools in Clarence or Amherst (or City Honors) are staffed with unionized teachers and administrators, and are subject to all the same bureaucracy as those public schools that people deride. The difference is the student population.

4. wiener -- it's clear that you are a sad, hateful man. Instead of subjecting others to your bitterness, please try something more productive, like drinking yourself to death.

Colin - I agree with most of your points, however you make it sound like the students are running the Buffalo Public Schools and they are the difference in the quality of education offered. If you take a child from the Buffalo Public Schools and enroll them in Clarence or Williamsville schools, they quickly gain ground lost while attending Buffalo. They will tend to achieve on par with their peer group. The difference here is culture, both in the schools and in the communities. We can sneer at the Suburbs for a number of reasons, but they have community that is greatly lacking in Buffalo, they have a focus on education as a priority not as a burden.

The difference in Buffalo is the Administration, the Teachers, and the Parents. All are lacking in Buffalo Public Schools and every child enrolled in the BPS system suffers as a result.

allfit --

I think the students are the difference. It's just harder to educate kids who are poor, who have less parental involvement, who have fewer role models, etc. And while an individual student can improve when placed in a better environment, that doesn't mean that schools in Clarence (or wherever) are doing this better than in the city. It just means that they have a greater capacity to deal with problematic students because the bulk of their stsudents are already in a position to succeed.

There's plenty of evidence to support the idea that the student populations are different in Buffalo and Clarence. But there isn't the same kind of evidence to suggest that the teachers or administrators are any different. They're all unionized workers, they're all certified by the state, they all teach from mandated curricula, they tend to graduate from the same schools, they're paid roughly the same, etc.

Its no secret that the two states with the most powerful teachers unions (NY and CA) have the highest educational costs in the nation and thereby the highest educational costs in the world

Yet for all theirmoney public schools in NY and CA do not produce the best students in the nation or the best students in the world.

If you morons read up on school choice and school vouchers then you would see that public, private and parochial schools do not pick and choose the creme of the crop and they operate on much lower educational budgets because they dont have the feds and the state pushing one communist, socialist, feminist, zionist, diversity, multi-cultural social engineering agenda after another nor are said schools layered with super-indendents and layers of staff, school boards and layers of staff, principles and assistent principles and layers and layers.

Public schools are a corrupt buracracy that feeds only administrators and unions at the expense of children.

Those cities that have growing urban cores have solved their urban educational problems through school vouchers so that those who can opt out of public schools can still live in the city. No parent wants their child brought down to the lowest common denomonater or the dregs of human filth because public schools cannot manage those kids so that the rest of the school can learn.

Such kids and parents need to be sent before a judge and a social worker before their dysfunction and degeneration succeed in being another waste product of society wasting away in prison, prostitution or welfare. Yet the judicial system wont do it, family court wont do it and the school system wont do it but the truth is schools are a place to learn and if a child isnt learning it should be deemed by society as abuse and that child should be removed from that parent and all social welfare should be cut off from that parent including their own. A parent that refuses to parent deserves to lose their children and be on the street, in jail or in a mental institution.

Colin - The teachers are basically the same, but the cultures are profoundly different. It is like any organization, let's look at the NFL. Coaches have roughly the same credentials, the talent on teams is roughly the same (a few stars, mostly great athletes at every position), the fan rules and the game are the same, but there is something about the culture that is created and how well everything fits together that differentiates a winning vs. a losing team.

If parental involvement is the factor, then I would contend that a welfare family that stays at home with their children would have more involvement and more time with the kids than a double income family that may spend only a couple of hours of time with their children a day. Perhaps it is the quality of involvement, which goes to one of Buffweiner's comments about welfare recipients being inherently bad parents, this is an argument that I would never make nor do I support. I also do not support the contention that children from poor families are inherently inferior and will remain that way throughout their lives, yet this seems to be the argument of you and Blackrocklifer. Kids who are born poor are not capable of succeeding, is that what you are saying?

allfit- colin did an excellent job of explaining the complexity of this issue and yet you cling to the same tired arguments. Do you know many poor people? I mean personally, not just from TV. As a activist in my community for many years I can claim an insiders view and speak with some experience.

Blackrocklifer - Yes, I know many, many poor people and have also spent a great deal of time living and working in the city. I know what the situation is in the city, can you say the same of the suburbs? Have you lived in the suburbs of Buffalo or are you basically just living off assumptions.

I spend a great deal of time volunteering with Literacy Volunteer, Compeer, Boys and Girls Club of Buffalo, and with several other groups and events over the years. I know many of the families that I have worked with and many of their neighbors, primarily on the east side and University Heights; however I do make my way into the West Side quite often.

There are many caring families who are doing their best to educate their children, they are involved and they try their best to be role models for their children. I would say that they do as good a job as any parent can in being a role model to their children. This is one of the reasons that their children are involved in various organizations like Boys and Girls Clubs and Literacy Volunteers. The complaint that I hear is the same, The Teachers aren't available or they just don't care. I was tutoring a student at Bennett High School last year, his teacher assigned homework nightly but never checked it or collected it. When his parent's asked about it the teacher said "no one does it, what's the use in checking it?". The parents spoke with the Principal who said "I have discipline issues that are more pressing than whether or not a teacher collects homework, and besides if you were really concerned then you would bring back the teacher's aides who could collect it, we don't have resources for the teachers that they need so they do the best they can". I was there for that conversation. The Principal had basically given up on any efforts to improve and raise the bar.

Now you can blame the discipline issues, or budget cuts, but the bottom line is that this family, who were living in near poverty in a rented duplex in the University Heights were basically told to check to make sure that their son's homework was done and that I should check the answers when I meet with him weekly. The school can't do any more than they already are, and although the Principal said that the situation would be discussed with the teacher, the expectation never changed. That family moved out of Buffalo and into Amherst Central Schools before the end of the school year. The student is in his senior year, is now taking 2 AP classes and is planning on attending Buff State next year. Isolated case?

Not really, I had a similar issue with a child that I was mentoring through Literacy Volunteers. The child was a poor student and was often afraid to come to school. His mother spoke with the Principal and was told that "this is a tough place, your son needs to stand up for himself and learn to protect himself if he is going to make it to High School". The family used an Aunt's address to enroll him in Maryvale Schools, and then he was enrolled in Enterprise Charter the following year. I am still in contact with the family and he is doing well; however they are looking to move away from the city to legitimately enroll him in a suburban school. His mom is working a second job at a collection agency just to afford the move. She isn't leaving because of crime, although that is a concern, she is leaving because of the schools.

I know several other families who have accepted the issues with the schools and figure that this is as good as it gets for Buffalo. It is sad when a family has to compromise on their child's future because they can't afford to move to the suburbs or to enroll their child in catholic schools.

It isn't more difficult to educate these students, in fact they are a heck of a lot hungrier for education than some of the suburban kids that I know. I took exception with the same tired arguments of blaming the kids and the families. Although some families are not involved, and some kids are difficult to education, at the end of the day they are still kids and they are looking for boundaries and security, they are eager to learn when you connect with them. It is my contention that too many Buffalo Teachers are jaded or have given up on the lot to really try to connect. The culture of success is lacking in too many schools, and it takes teachers and administrators to turn that around.

So to answer your question... yes, I live in the suburbs, but I lived in the city for years. I know many poor people in the city and in the suburbs, I volunteer with many of them and I work with others. So I am also speaking with an insiders knowledge and experience. The difference is that I will not blame someone nameless or faceless entity, such as "the suburbs" or "right wing policy" for the failings of the city, the schools or the students. .

allfit- I applaud your volunteer work and wish others would follow your lead. Its seems as if many on this blog are critical of the city yet have not done anything to help. I grew up spending time in Amherst, Grand Island, and Kenmore. (Staying with my cousins). I have been to the backyard barbecues and been privy to the conversations. The underlying tone is Us (white suburbanites) vs them (poor city and especially non-white).Suburban governments and Republican policies are not responsible for ALL the problems in the city but to claim that they have not played a major role is dishonest.

Go Colin!

Blackrocklifer - Maybe your friends, relatives, and associates have turned their back on the city or see this as an us vs. them situation (which is the tone that I hear from you too). Most of my friends, relatives, and associates understand that a blighted urban core has a significant negative impact on the entire region. Most of us are passionate about changing the current situation, and most of my closest friends volunteer, many as board members, for many organizations in the city.

I am not saying that your perception is incorrect; however I am stating that your comments perpetuate the stereotypes and animosity. You seem to have as much contempt for people in the suburbs as you feel they have for you. I am saying that neither of you are correct. There are people in the city who resent the suburbs and people in the suburbs who resent the city. It happens, don't perpetuate it.

I believe that both sides of the aisle have had equal culpability for the problems in America and at a smaller scale the City of Buffalo. I find it funny when someone can so vehemently attack one party while blindly defending the other; it happens on both sides of the divide. You happen to defend the Democrats while attacking the Republicans, I have friends who do the opposite. Neither case is correct, again we should focus on lending a hand instead of pointing a finger.

The one thing that bothers me about the City of Buffalo is the pervasive inferiority complex and victim mentality. It holds the city back as much as it holds back an individual who suffers from the same issues.

I read and hear a lot of comments about how the city was just an innocent bystander to all the unfortunate events that transpired around us. The city was the victim of government policies that promoted suburban sprawl, they are the victims of poverty, the victims of foreign competition, the victims of union busting or overly aggressive unions, the victims of bad local politicians, the victims of the success of other areas.

If you objectively listen to the banter around the city you will continue to hear this victim dialogue. Too many people blame others for our own lack of achievement, both on the group and individual levels.

How do we change it? The first step is to listen to the dialogue and identify the phrases and statements that perpetuate the victim role. These are the statements that place the power and responsibility for our position in life in the hands of someone else. Too often we blame others for the distress that we are in. Examples include blaming suburban schools, private and parochial schools, and charter schools for the condition of the Buffalo Public Schools. The Buffalo Schools need to take responsibility for their own environment instead of blaming their lack of performance on external factors that are outside of their control, while ignoring the internal factors that are within their control.

I have enjoyed watching the success of Michelle Rhee in the DC Public Schools. She has taken charge of one of the worst school districts in the nation, identified those things that are within her control to change, and focused on changing them. She is working to change the relationship with City Hall, the Common Council, and other leaders in DC; as well as the teachers, the faculty and staff, support personnel, the parents and most importantly the students that she serves. She is not without her critics, but she has grown a steady stream of supporters and fans from across the country. She didn't change the schools by eliminating students or by wishing that she could combine with other area schools, she did it by understanding what needed to change within the DC system and having the courage to make those changes. The past three Chancellors have perpetuated the victim mentality and the inferiority complex, she has worked to change that. In comparison, the Buffalo Public Schools continues to look at external factors and saying "we can't"; while DC looks at the internal factors and says "We can".

We could learn a lot from leaders like Rhee, if we have the courage to stop perpetuating the victim mentality and the cycle of decline. It is much easier to point the fingers and blame others for our misfortune or deficiencies; but we have to acknowledge these destructive behaviors and make a concerted effort to change them if we want to see improvement.

he first step is to listen to yourself. Are you blaming others in your life for all the distress in it? Are you not accepting responsibility for your actions? Are you giving some other person the power (by blaming them you are giving them the power) to have control once again in your life? Do you look at life as being unfair to you and that everyone else gets the breaks?

allfit- My comments are intended to point out the inequity between city and suburbs. The anti city crowd is much more vocal and politically and economically powerful than the handful of new urbanists who are critical of suburbia. I don't have "contempt" for the average suburbanite and know most are decent people but I do have contempt for the policies that their governments have used to concentrate the poor in the city. I also have contempt for the racism that is pervasive (though less overt than in the past). Maybe suburban voters could elect more progressive leaders instead of the usual protecters of the status quo if they truly cared about the "blighted core" and region. As for politics, The Democrats are much too far to the RIGHT for me but they are the lesser of two evils.

Allfit-. There is a pride and commitment here in Black Rock among many of us who have worked for years to improve our neighborhood and this requires strength and perseverance. Don"t mistake the passion that we have for this city with a "victim mentality". I point out the inequity between city and suburb because few seem to be aware of just how much Buffalo has been abused by her "neighbors". Few seem to know the history of the past 50 years that has caused so much damage to my city and neighborhood.

I am sure that you have your rationale for using statements like "Buffalo has been abused by her neighbors" and "few know the history... that has caused so much damage"... but these are classic victim statements.

Things have happened to everyone, we make a choice to either dwell on them or move on to better things. It sounds to me like you still haven't come to terms with the past so you choose to dwell instead of move.

Don't take this as a statement that nothing is being done, I am saying that this mentality is holding many in the city and this region back. Try to catch yourself making statements that relate to the things that were done in the past that have a negative impact on us today. Looking back and wishing that the NYS Thruway wasn't built, or our major industries didn't close, or suburbs weren't developed does nothing to move us forward. Dwelling on these things, that we know will not change, is part of the victim mentality that I am describing.

Another aspect of the victim mentality is telling someone that "they just don't know how much we've suffered, you can't just let things go that easily". Sound familiar?

allfit- I would argue that the suburbs are stuck in the "denial phase", denying the role they have played and continue to play in undermining the city. Until they move on to the "Acceptance phase" and take responsibilty and do their part to share the regions burden we can not move forward. I find your arguments interesting even though we seldom agree but you lose credibility when you try to analyze anothers mental state. (your victim mentality nonsense)

BRL - I can see where you would take that view, especially when you are still blaming decisions and actions from 50 years ago for the status of the city today and continue to use that mantra for the reason that we are unable to succeed tomorrow. If it takes the suburbs to respond before the city can improve, then the city is doomed.

You may want to review your comments or even do some self-reflection to see where my comments are coming from. An alternate strategy is to put up a defense and say that you do not have a problem. Your choice. Peace.

This whole discussion of urban/suburban angst needs to be kept in perspective. What happened in Buffalo 50 years ago happened everywhere in the nation where there was industry. If there is anyone to blame for the suburban sprawl and exodus from cities, one can argue that it was the GI Bill after WWII. Add to that the prosperity of the fifties and the embracing of the American Dream. Conflict of interest over time was inevitable. And with it came the concept that if you remained in the city, you were left behind. I know this brief explanation is simplistic as there is an entire fied of study devoted to Urban History; but said conflict is evidenced in this forum routinely and it isn't going away.

allfit --

No, my argument isn't that "children from poor families are inherently inferior and will remain that way throughout their lives" nor that "Kids who are born poor are not capable of succeeding." Those are some nice strawmen, though.

My point is that poor kids are less prepared for success than their wealthier counterparts. For the benefit of the functionally illiterate, I'll make clear that this doesn't mean that they are incapable of succeeding, or that each individual disadvantaged child is doomed, or anything of the sort.

Given this fact, it seems dishonest to judge the performance of city schools as if they're working with the same raw material as private or suburban schools. It may be that city schools are failing even when you take these differences into account, or it may be that they're failing to meet the unique needs of their student population, but in any event the student population has to be taken into account.

Colin, the inner city students will ultimately benefit from affirmative action and take the place of the white students that work harder in private school, but receive no reward for their efforts because they are white.

It is a shortcut that minorities (blacks) have been taking for many years without putting in the same work ethic.

The immigration laws in this country will make the white population a minority within the next 50 years. If you are indeed white like you say (you must be the most black white person that I have ever met) you will be regretting your statements herein.

Colin - I am glad that we are on the same page, because as I stated above I do not support the two statements that you cut from my comment without completing the sentence. So nice job of editing to send the message that you want, you should work for FOXnews.

Your point, as I am interpreting it is that inner city children who attend the Buffalo Public schools are the lowest of the low in the area. The best are either in suburban, private, parochial, or charter schools. The best of the rest in BPS are sent to City Honors or one of the other specialty schools leaving the dregs of society in the mainline schools. So the majority of Buffalo Public Schools students are not equipped to succeed because they are not wealthy. We should not set high expectations for them because they lack role models and support needed to succeed. We know this but we can't do anything about it. We just throw up our hands in futility and say that we cannot expect them to perform because they were not born into the wealth and affluence like every suburban or private school student.

I say that you are enabling poor performance and making excuses for a school system that has stopped trying to improve. You are enabling the Buffalo Public Schools to throw in the towel on all but the best, after all they have no control over the economic background of their students, right? How could they possibly teach these poor savages who come from such difficult backgrounds. How could they compete in a world where rich white suburbanites start with such an unfair advantage over the poor minority inner-city students. We might as well just save the money by pulling them out of school and putting them on welfare for life, right?

How about this, the City of Buffalo Schools could develop a curriculum that offers reasonable accommodation for the socioeconomic background of the students that attend the school. They can offer role models, mentors, and assistance like many of the charter schools offer. They could incorporate some of the successful programs that other poor cities have incorporated, like the 11 month school calendar program in Baltimore and Philadelphia, or the 1-to-1 mentoring program that was set-up in Toledo a decade ago. Just two out of hundreds of examples of where schools have worked to bridge this gap. Alternately, we can continue to make excuses and watch another generation of Buffalonians repeat the cycle.

So take the student population into account, not as an excuse for poor performance, but as a catalyst for improvement. After all, isn't that what the school districts are supposed to focus on?

Colin only supports poor inner city minorities and hates hard working white people that come from a little bit of money. He is only concerned with playing the race card, even though he is white....

Colin, you should seriously consider creating a white support group for disadvantaged blacks....meet once a week and create a foundation.

Disadvantaged is just that. It transcends economic and racial differences. I think there would be more agreement here if we thought in terms of barriers to education that impact student preparedness and performance. Poverty is the one that looms the largest. It comes in all colors and tends to congregate in the cities. That is the true reality of any comparisons. Just take 15 seconds to make a mental list that might start like: " a lack of access to good health care, safe neighborhoods, good parenting, decent early childhood education, English language competence, good diet, etc." I think you will find that these issues are the ones that need to change. It is unfortunate that that these inadequacies are more prevalent and concentrated in the BPS. Not to make excuses for low performance, but I think it is pure folly to expect the same results. And, just because BPS scores are lower than the suburban school districts, that doesn't mean that they are necessarily failing the kids. They are failing to meet score as high as more affluent areas. There is no mystery here at all, just some misguided finger pointing. But, I did read a lot of good arguments in this debate! It is great to see this topic presented as the state of the city"s public schools are very relevant to the present and future of Buffalo.

No one is truly rich while there are still poor among us.

Enough with scapegoating the suburbs. If Amherst and Clarence didn't exist, apologists for Buffalo's problems would want to invent them.

Colin implies there's essentially no such thing as better schools or better school systems, there only better (more caring about education) parents which in turn results in some schools and some school systems being able to accomplish better education than others.

If that's really the main reason, how is it that some (small portion) charter schools in Buffalo over the past few years were assessed as low quality and shut down by NY state? In the Colin way of looking at things, were those closed charter schools really every bit as good as the others but somehow had unluckily admitted students whose parents cared less about education than parents at the majority of charters that showed better results? Was NY State wrong to force those few charters to close instead of just concluding the parents of those charters were at fault?

Logically, how is it possible to say some charter schools in Buffalo do a better job than other charters given similar sets of students/parents, and to at the same time say quality issues in BPS/BTF schools are always the result of being victimized by parents/students who don't care enough? That doesn't add up. If it's possible that some Buffalo charters are/were lower quality than they should be expected to be, then that's also possible for non-charter BPS/BTF schools. One big difference is there's very little accountability in BPS/BTF schools. How hard is it to ever fire a poorly performing teacher or principal in a non-charter BPS/BTF school? Or to ever shut down a non-charter BPS/BTF school for quality issues? It's a lot harder than in charters or in privates schools.

Yes, lets stop scapegoating the suburbs and return to the usual game of attacking all things city, especially schools and poor people. Funny how those that benefit from the status quo are always so quick to criticize anyone who points out the inequities that exist.

to blackrocklifer and atwaterlouse: you both make valid points as everyone else has on this page. I think the true problems do reside on the students of the BPS, not because of economic reasons but culture. I have a brother who is a teacher in the BPS system, and he finds it very difficult to teach his students because of their lack of enthusiasm. Now granted, not many 6th graders have a craving for knowledege, however many students, in say lancaster where his wife works, do have a strong family base which may help some. As you get into the high schools at the BPS it becomes even harder to teach, many students who have not dropped out want to, and violence sometimes interferes with education. Now of course this cannot be generalized to all students in buffalo public schools, but it is true that many who are in the top of their class transphere to charter schools if they are not already there. this is because of the enviroment of the charter school compared to the public city school, the enviroment of a suburban school to an urban one.

BRLifer - That itself is a false attack with a full victimization mind set:

'lets stop scapegoating the suburbs and return to the usual game of attacking all things city, especially schools and poor people. Funny how those that benefit from the status quo are always so quick to criticize anyone who points out the inequities that exist.'

Clearly neither of my comments above are attacking all things city. In fact, my latter comment mentions advantages of charter schools in Buffalo (in the city).

Specifically, can you point out any comments from anyone in this thread that are 'attacking all things city'? I don't see any.

It's not defending the status quo to say education should be improved in the city via more accountability, more consequences for low quality education, and less excuse making such as Colin's blaming of city parents. Colin's comments look most like accepting the status quo regarding BPS/BTF schools in the city.

Charters offer the most realistic chance to change the status quo.

buffawakening- Economics are directly related to the culture. Poverty causes disfunction and hopelessness. Concentration of the poor in one school district perpetuates this cycle.

buffawakening - To be clear, I'm not minimizing the difficulties such as those you describe.

The difference of opinion seems to be whether or not to focus on trying to overcome those by a wider variety of new approaches for innovation, felxibility and accoountability such as what charters are trying. Another approach is to just say schools where most students from low-income families just can't succeed no matter what.

allfit --

1. The quotes that I pulled from your earlier post were addressed as questions to me, so I answered them. I never suggested that they represented how you felt about anything.

2. I don't think that city kids are the "lowest of the low" and that suburban kids are the "best." And I really wish you would stop trying to put offensive words into my mouth. My point, which I've repreated time and again, is that city kids tend to be less prepared to succeed in school than their wealthier counterparts. This really isn't a controversial statement.

3. While we're on the subject of you putting false words in my mouth, I certainly do not suggest that we "throw up our hands in futility and say that we cannot expect [disadvantaged kids] to perform." Quite the opposite. We need to create public education that works for these kids and their needs. My argument is that this is going to be harder than meeting the needs of wealthier populations. It may require new ways of doing things, it may require more money, or it may require things we can't think of at the moment. But holding up suburban schools as a model seems wrong to me, since they are dealing with a different situation.

4. I disagree that the BPS have "stopped trying to improve." I'm not a big fan of Williams, but it seems clear that he's trying different things in an attempt to improve school performance. Maybe they'll work, or maybe they won't, but I don't see that anyone has given up.

Atwater- Every time there is a discussion on this blog about Buffalo Public Schools I hear the same tired arguments. Blame the kids, the culture, the teachers, the administration, the parents. Why not admit that concentrating all of the poor and disadvantaged in one school district is THE MAIN REASON our schools have problems. Maybe a countywide system would help by spreading the burden around. Maybe if Buffalo spent as much per student as suburban districts it might help. Why isn't this seen as a regional issue and given the resources and attention it deserves?

atwater --

1. "Colin implies there's essentially no such thing as better schools or better school systems . . ." You may imagine that I imply this, but I'll do you a favor and make my beliefs plain. Some schools are better than others. Some schools are better than others. Some schools' mothers are bigger than other schools' mothers.

2. So school performance isn't simply a question of student population. But it's a big factor, and it complicates any attempt at judging a school's effectiveness.

gaustad --

1. "Colin only supports poor inner city minorities and hates hard working white people that come from a little bit of money. He is only concerned with playing the race card, even though he is white...." It's odd that you would accuses me of playing the race card, as my comments on this thread have never mentioned race. In fact, it was you who introduced race into the discussion. But that's not surprising, since you're a racist.

2. "The immigration laws in this country will make the white population a minority within the next 50 years." So what?

3. "the inner city students will ultimately benefit from affirmative action and take the place of the white students that work harder . . ." If this was actually the case, wouldn't wouldn't things look a lot different? If black students could count on this kind of broad preferential treatment, wouldn't black people have lower poverty and unemployment rates than whites? Fact is, affirmative action has a pretty tangential impact. If it was the phenomenon you imagine, this country would be a much different place.

Colin 16:37 Sep 20 - '3. All that said, plenty of public schools do very well themselves. Schools in Clarence or Amherst (or City Honors) are staffed with unionized teachers and administrators, and are subject to all the same bureaucracy as those public schools that people deride. The difference is the student population.'

Colin 16:36 Sep 22 - '2. So school performance isn't simply a question of student population. But it's a big factor, and it complicates any attempt at judging a school's effectiveness.'

Unless I'm still imagining it, the last sentence of the the former strongly disagrees with first sentence of the latter. I agree with the Sep 22 Colin. It's a big complicating factor. I don't see where anyone said it isn't one factor. It can also be used to divert and excuse other important factors.

Another thing the Sep 20 Colin got wrong is saying all area public schools 'are subject subject to all the same bureaucracy'.

State level, sure. District level, no. The BPS is accountable for their own bureaucracy which in recent years has:

- decided against trying to discipline of any BPS high-level employees at McKinley HS

- decided to sweep under the rug the City Honors admission preference scandal

- not properly followed up on the abuse report, even when Williams signed for receipt of a registered letter informing him about it

- decided after the Performing Arts group assault on a teacher and student, to welcome back the student attackers and suggest the student victim should transfer to another school

- decided against authorizing more district-sponsored charter schools even though the state education commissioner recently pointed out the BPS does have that power if they want to

atwater --

1. On the bureaucracy bit, I was talking about state and federal. Each district has it's own local mess, sure, and I'm not a particular fan of the BPS decision makers. If you were circulating a petition to fire Williams and his cronies on the board, I'd sign it.

2. That said, I think your list is interesting. From what I've read, it was state law that made it so costly to try and discipline the principal at McKinley. Those same rules would apply at a suburban school. And while I agree that instances of school violence have been poorly handled by Williams and others, they represent the sort of challenge that faces city schools in a way it doesn't face suburban or private schools. BPS failed that test, but it's a test that other districts don't have to face to the same degree.

3. I don't see a conflict in the two statements you juxtapose. While some administrators and teachers are better than others, and while some schhols do better with the same raw material than others, the glaring difference between BPS and other districts is the student population. Unless someone can offer proof that there is a glaring difference in competence between BPS teachers/administrators and those in other districts, then I think my point stands.

blackrocklifer- you are correct in saying that poverty and culture are related. you say "Poverty causes disfunction and hopelessness"... however could it not be said that it is instead the other way around, disfunction causes poverty? never the less... if individuals want to make somthing of themselves they have to get past the culture.... not nessessarily the poverty. if you study hard and care about your work... somthing the culture lacks... poverty wont matter. poverty does effect culture. but it does not destine it.

AtwaterLouse- i agree with you in that there needs to be more options, and more innovations as you put it. allowing people to pick which schools they will attend and have the government produce vouchers for kids looking to attend charter schools will provide a much needed change in enviroment and some cases culture that students are looking for.

buffawakening- I agree it can go both ways but we are talking about children here and they don't always have the support or mentoring to "make something of themselves and get past the culture"

blackrocklifer- point taken. it is true that children are not responsible for the culture and it is also true as you said they often do not have the support they need.

but the point i am trying to make is that you can pour all the money you want into the city schools and you will not get the results you want. we have to change the culture (or at least the negative aspects of it) to change the grades.

just to support my point a little more... look at rural towns like elba. they have near 40% of their population below the poverty line, yet outpreform the city schools easily. the culture is different. and as you said they have support systems like strong family bases which many (though not all) city children lack. however i dont believe the teaching is all that different.

Buffawakening- You are right that money would not solve all the problems but it would help. Buffalo spends $9,928 Per pupil (excluding special ed) , lower than most area schools. With the greatest challenge we spend the least. I think a countywide system of "choice" schools would work best and I believe suburban children would benefit from this system as well.

Colin said: From what I've read, it was state law that made it so costly to try and discipline the principal at McKinley. Those same rules would apply at a suburban school. And while I agree that instances of school violence have been poorly handled by Williams and others, they represent the sort of challenge that faces city schools in a way it doesn't face suburban or private schools. BPS failed that test, but it's a test that other districts don't have to face to the same degree.

You may be interested in researching the resignation of the Principal at Williamsville South, and what the district did to step in on behalf of the teachers and students to ensure that they were protected. They were operating under the same constraints as the Buffalo Public Schools, but they handled it much differently. The bottom line here is that Williamsville South has a new Principal, and Mckinley retained theirs because it was just too darn hard to reprimand her. What a cop-out by the Buffalo Schools.

Most suburban schools deal with incidents of violence, harassment, and other offenses. Granted they are not as frequent as in Buffalo, but they are taken more seriously than in Buffalo. There was a fight outside of Depew High School during the second last week of school last year, the Depew and Lancaster Police were on the scene within minutes and detained all students who were involved. The Principal of the High School ensured that charges were pressed against the students and two of them were arrested. This did go down on their permanent records. The mother of one of the students petitioned the school board stating that they over reacted, but the Principal and the School Board stood behind their decision, stating that the two students broke the code of conduct and endangered the welfare of other students. Both were suspended and were required to do community service as a stipulation of their return to school. Again, this is not the same scenario as Buffalo Schools, but it was handled differently and in my view more effectively.

Buffalo Public Schools spend more per pupil than other area schools, yet the perform lower and have less of their budget dedicated to student resources. Here is a breakdown of total cost per student by school district:

Buffalo: $14,025

Amherst: $11,526

Williamsville: $11,256

Clarence: $9,623

Lancaster: $9,489

Even backing out Special Ed, you are still spending as much per pupil as you will in several of the other schools, with lower results.

Allfit- Special ed is about 1/3 of Buffalos school budget, so with the most challenges Buffalo spends about the same as Lancaster and Clarence $9,928 per pupil EXCLUDING special ed. Special ed in the suburbs is small potatoes as part of the budget and I believe Buffalo's special ed program serves many suburban children.

We can continue to be apologists for the Buffalo Public Schools, and we can perpetuate the victim mentality by blaming all other factors except the BPS, or we can work to change the school system to make it competitive and effective.

We effectively have a 'choice' system in place, as many parents choose to move out of the city and enroll their children in other school systems. If we continue to extend this, then it may be a matter of time before we close several more Buffalo Schools.

Stop making excuses and apologies and start looking at the true problem with the schools. As many have said before (me included) the culture needs to change across the board in the Buffalo Schools. Administrators, Teachers, Parents, and Students all need to work together to change the culture if the schools will ever be successful. Unfortunately, it is easier to just give up and hope that a more effective school district will do a better job of educating Buffalo's students instead of making the difficult effort to change a broken system. I agree with many comments that reflect a problem with Administration and the Teacher's Union, as the BTF is working hard to interfere with the charter school system and to incorporate the Charter teachers into the union to stop all competition. It is sad when the BTF decides that it is easier to coerce and pressure to end competition instead of addressing the problems in their ranks.

I wonder how many former BPS Students transferred into the suburban schools this year? Does anyone have a report on this?

allfit- I have layed out a simple and reasonable plan, SHARE the burden of the regions poor. Spend the same on all pupils regardless of where or into what income level they are born. You know the American dream thing. A countywide system with choices that would make it possible for all to excel (or fail) .Concentrating the vast majority of the regions poor in the city of Buffalos schools and then wondering why there are problems seems naive at best.

Allfit-That said- I am no fan of the Administration of the BPS. Atwaters list of scandals angers me to and I vote for change with each opportunity. Another problem with poverty is lack of political participation for the poor rarely see voting as relevant to changing their lives.

BRL - 19.3% of Buffalo students are classified as requiring special education services.

9.9% of Williamsville students are classified as requiring special education services.

11.3% of Clarence students are classified as requiring special education services.

12.1% of Lancaster students are classified as requiring special education services.

9.2% of Amherst students are classified as requiring special education services.

(source: http://eservices.nysed.gov) (2005-6 data)

So let's back out the representative amount for Special Education from each of the district budgets and the cost per student by district is:

Buffalo: $11,318 (14,025 - 2,706.82)

Amherst: $10,465.81 (11,526 - 1,060.39)

Williamsville: $10,141.66 (11,256 - 1,114.34)

Clarence: $8,545.60 (9,623 - 1,087.40)

Lancaster: $8,340.84 (9,489 - 1,148.16)

Special Education does bring down the cost per student for Buffalo; however the Buffalo Public Schools are still spending more per student than the other districts for main stream education.

Here is a sample of one difference between Buffalo and Williamsville schools. The graduation rate for students receiving special education services in Williamsville is 70.1%, in Buffalo the graduation rate is 20.1%. (measured for all students with disabilities). How do you explain that discrepancy?

Should we increase the spending in the suburban schools to remain on par with the Buffalo Schools, if spending is the issue? So we up the per pupil cost for other local districts and share the burden of the poor throughout western new york. What will that do to improve the Buffalo Public Schools, other than give people one less excuse to leave the city?

Allfit - Its THE POVERTY, The special ed kids are poor as well and usually with more special needs (another result of poverty)

allfit- sharing the burden would change everthing because the poor and the associated problems would affect those outside the city and bring about a demand for change wether from basic decency or plain old self preservation. As long as the poor are kept at arms length there is little incentive to work for change.

The funding burden is already shared and then some.

'Spend the same on all pupils regardless of where or into what income level they are born.'

If the countywide total was kept constant, starting to spend the same per student across Erie Co would lower the Buffalo school spending, not increase it. The NY Times has a database online confirming those per-student spending numbers allfit posted which shows how high Buffalo spending is:

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20070610_SCHOOLSPEND_GRAPHIC.html

(Select Erie Co from menu on that page - it can show all counties in NY and some other states.)

By the way, all of that data including allfit's numbers is from 2004-5.

Since 2005, NYS funding to Buffalo schools has grown a lot - record spending increases most years. In years since 2006, there's very probably an even larger spending gap in Buffalo's favor.

Through their state income tax, many of the 70% of Erie Co residents who live outside Buffalo already contribute disproportionately to Buffalo school budgets (most of which comes via Albany) in addition to paying school taxes for their own districts (which also get a lot from Albany but much less per pupil than Buffalo - which is ok, but it's ALREADY sharing a lot). They also pay more federal taxes per capita which help fund aid for special ed, lunches, and other programs in Buffalo more than outside Buffalo.

This is all a big distraction. The BPS spends enough money already. What should be added instead of more money is more accountability, and more parent choice and options as buffawakening described in 18:30 comment above. If charters are to be shut down when they don't meet some quality standard then the exact same should be done for non-charters.

Atwater- Buffalo as a city generates plenty of wealth and taxes that we also share with the region. The taxpayers of Buffalo pay county taxes to and receive very little in return. Numbers I have for 2006 BPS-Amount per pupil $9,928 excluding special ed. free and reduced lunch 91%. We can all find statistics to further our argument but just look around, our society has been divided into the haves and have nots and until we all accept responsibility there can be no change.

There seems to be more agreement on this issue than disagreement. To compare Buffalo City Schools to more affluent suburban schools is like comparing apples to oranges. Let's not forget that this large district serves the children of the second poorest similar sized city in America. Within this district, there are many alternatives to public schools that are being used by parents who have kids who can meet the criteria. Most of themse do not take spec.ed. which explains the higher percenrage of disabled students. If we only look at test scores, the big picture is lost. It is more about the student population than we, as Americans, are willing to publicly acknowledge. This is the land where all are created equal and every kid has the same opportunities to do as well as the next (providing that they can pull themselves up from their boot straps). Some people in this forum might be better served by reading the series (available in the online edition of the Buffalo News) entitled "Children of Poverty." Then try to tell us that the kids who come to Kindergarten from let's say the Perry Street Projects has the same level playing field as his counterpart in any nearby suburb to the immediate Northeast. It really isn't about per pupil spending, unions, teachers, administrators, politicians, etc. It's about perceptions based on test scores.

Pegger- We are now the 3rd poorest city (Cleveland beat us for #2). You did a good job of summing this up. I think the biggest problem is our refusal as a society to admit that our children are not treated equally and we ALL are responsible for this injustice.

Where's a link to the $9928 number, and what are the other districts' numbers for the same adjustments? There's no way Buffalo doesn't spend more per pupil, even though you keep claiming it's less. The $9928 is more than the total $9623 that Clarence spent in 2005 even without adjustment (see link I posted with all Erie Co showing Buffalo spend over $14,000 on that basis). Lancaster spent even less than Clarence.

City taxpayers "receive very little in return" for county taxes they pay? You can't be serious. County taxpayer funded entitlements program... largest portion of the Erie Co. budget by far... city residents vs non-city residents? Discuss amongst yourselves.

Speaking of accepting responsibility, you should accept responsibility for claiming the city spends less per student than surrounding districts when facts show it spends more. You should admit the mistake or provide some source that shows otherwise.

More spending isn't the answer to BPS system problems. Its spending has skyrocketed.

The problem here is greed. We have too many rich people living in the suburbs who have turned their backs on the poor in the city. They are not giving enough to support the less fortunate and disadvantaged. As Blackrocklifer so eloquently point out several times; the city is primarily poverty stricken because of the rich in the suburbs. The poverty effects every aspect of a persons life especially education.

The poor are not born with the same advantages as the suburban rich. They will not have the same opportunities for success because they have been brandished with the scarlet 'P' for poor and this letter will follow them throughout their life. The rich have taken so much from the poor, and they just keep on taking. They have beautiful new buses while city kids take the metro or walk, they have new athletic equipment while city kids are forced to share or use unsafe and outdated equipment, they have new textbooks while city kids are forced to use a 30 year old copy, the suburbs have it all while the city is left with nothing.

The problem on the surface is poverty, but the underlying issue is racism. It is not as blatant as it was in the past but it is still there. The suburbs have forced our children back into servitude, leaving them to beg and grovel for even the most basic of necessities. Our schools are underfunded, as Blackrocklifer points out, but I disagree with Blackrocklifer on the follow-up. Instead of shipping students to the snobby suburbs, we should have the suburbs pay for leaving the city behind. We should take the best and brightest teachers from the suburbs and have them work in the city schools. We should have an extra tax on rich suburban families to help fund educational opportunities for the city children. We should put an end to any migration from the city to the suburbs until the city schools are improved.

Our children are not treated equally because we have greedy rich families in the suburbs who prey on the less fortunate who are forced to remain in devastating wake of the rich's departure. It is time that we force a more equitable distribution of wealth to provide opportunity for all Americans. Poverty is a cancer to the city fed by the greed and affluence of the suburban rich.

Atwater- What do the majority of WORKING TAXPAYING citizens of Buffalo recieve from Erie County except the honor of hosting all the poor and disadvantaged people who use these programs? I referenced the source of the per pupil costs in a previous post if you need to check. Why can't you accept that until we all accept responsibility, especially those of us with the ability to affect change then there can be no change.

Plenty of working poor living in the city benefit from county-funded entitlement programs - you know that. Poor does not mean non-working. Now what do county taxes have to do with the topic of Buffalo schools and their rate of spending which has grown so much over the years? County taxpayers outside the city are heavily subsidizing the city between county taxes for entitlements, state income taxes for school aid, and to some extent federal taxes as well. Sheriff patrols and highway funding is all very small comapred to the aid flowing into City Hall. I'm not necessarily complaining about that, but you pretend it's not happening.

Let's cut to the chase. How much would be "enough" for the BPS once and for all so we can be done with the spending issue? $18,000 per student? $20,000? $25,000?

How much that you don't say it's still not enough? Name a price so we know what you mean by fair, and maybe I'll write my state legislators and demand Buffalo aid be raised to that much just so we can move on.

If Buffalo started receiving enough state aid to spend at a rate triple what Clarence does, would that be enough? Four times? What? How can "we" ever agree to accept responsibility if it's a moving target that you will always say isn't being met?

(Btw, I see no link or other reference in your previous comments for the $9,928 number. Maybe I'm overlooking it. Which comment, what time?)

I don't think I can answer AtwaterLouse's question about how much money it would really take to bring parity to high poverty schools with a monetary figure that is even a ballpark one. But, I do have to qualify the answer with a few statements. Suburban schools are not with out there challenges either. Even the Ken-Ton schools have and always have had neighborhoods that provided student populations more akin to city students. It was like that in the 60's when I attended as a kid. You could spot them at a 100 yards. Back at that time, I attended schools on Grand Island and in Buffalo as well. Specifically, I attended what was once called PS 65 in Riverside. It was a dump and the one year I was in attendance there, it was inferior. Today, it is one of the higher performing schools primarily in the city system because it was and still is a more working class school rather than inner city. Never the less, it was qualitatively different. This can be verified by looking at the BPS Report Card. So, I speculate not.

But I digress to get to the point which will make the above mentioned relevant in context. In a past life/career I had a teaching career but not in the Buffalo area. I taught in a suburban school several years. It was not difficult to teach large classes of these kids with great effectiveness. I then followed my path into an inner city school which had a 97% poverty rate. Not one BPS comes close to that rate. I could not be nearly as effective with those students in like sized classrooms. It can't be done. If we were committed to improving city schools, the only hope would be to have classes half the size. The costs would be prohibitive and it isn't going to happen for that reason. My experiences prove that if I had a suburban class with 40 students, I could never come close to getting similar scores with an inner city school class of only eight. That is how challenging these kids are. So, we are talking about increasing the per pupil spending in high poverty schools by a factor of 5. Assuning, for the sake of argument that it stands at an even $10,000 grand today. That cost would be about $50,000. As I said, even that wouldn't do the job. So, there is the number and it still will not bring parity. It's that simple. Give me (or any teacher) $5000 per pupil who have the the attitudes toward their own education, decent parents who can afford good health care, a good family with a community focus, a safe neighborhood, an income that is not high but stable, a teacher could do a bang up job in a barn.

Which job did I love the most? The inner city. It was rewarding beyond measure. The kids appreciated everything I did for them and they worked as hard as they could. They were learning well and they were making fine progress. But, there were enormous problems that they brought to school with them. They were defensive and hostile, fearful of this white honky in the front of the room. That was easily overcome, but an undercurrent ran throughout the school. These kids had lots of experience being wary of anyone in authority like teachers, social workers, law authoriities. By K, they were cautious of adults and could not trust any for fear that a slip could be the end of their families. Just one slip of the tongue. There is a huge difference betweeb urban ad suburban kids, Two different worlds. So, I hope all who read this understand my contempt for thinking all kids can learn the same and that there is no real difference. Get real. Urban teachers are just as good if not better.

Why did I leave? NCLB which assumes that ther is no difffence. When these kids were penalized by being labelled as "failing" because they could not keep up, it was time to go. If we really want to bring these school equality, it will cost a fortune just to level the playing field. Since it is impossible, the issue is moot. It is not fair to the kids or the teachers (who should get combat pay for what they endure). They are not failing.

So the cost for these kids approaches 50 grand and there is no guarantee.

I went on to a second career that now pays 60% more. Too bad for all concerned.

Yes

Although there were many valid points made during this discussion there were few concrete suggestions of how to help remedy the problems facing the Buffalo Public Schools. Simply criticizing the system and repeating the same mantra of not "being a victim" will not result in any real progress.

Here is a suggestion, shut the bars down at 2:00 am like most other cities, take the crack pipe out of peoples hands, get these people the gym and on a routine diet and maybe they will start disciplining their children properly.

People move to the burbs to live a clean lifestyle. Buffalo is not a clean lifestyle and is trinkles down to each generation.