Buffalo Rising Online

I admire Johnson, Ferdman and Frizlen for the work they have completed.

The homes in the Elmwood village are no longer selling with multiple offers, as a matter of fact they are not selling at all. Prices have been consistently dropping in the EV just as they are on the waterfront. Financing is very difficult, and old homes are now over priced. EV will follow suit with the rest of the country within the next 12-24 months. Most of the time, the rents do not support the asking price of the properties for sale.

The loft/apartments built next to TORO are always vacant becuase there is no real demand for them. There are currently multiple vacancies.

The Elmwood Village is in desperate need of more commercial stores and restaurants; a nice blend of the old with the new, much like Newbury St in Boston. Granted, Buffalo will NEVER have an Armani Cafe or a Gucci store, but a Gap or a Banana Republic, Urban Outftters, could easily be supported on Elmwood.

Last, the permit process for the demolition of the KFC is an absolute joke. these brave developers are getting no cooperation from the city.

I have to agree with Gaustad. The EV would greatly benefit from a few national retailers.

What is the problem with the KFC demo?

If the EV could support such a store(s) wouldn't those places have already located here? I am guessing the national chains have huge departments dedicated to determining what areas would/could support their stores.

Chains do have a demographics formula in order to locate to an area, usually density of population along with average household income in a certain radius. It would be nice to see major reailers open in EV, but that is probably a long way off if ever. Realtors will say anything to sell a property but the reality is homes even in EV are now lingering on the market. Untill this economic melt down clears up, people are afraid to spend, mortgages are difficult to get and banks are clamping down on appraisels, you'll be hard pressed to find a bank now that will aprove a loan "over market value". As to condo's, that area is taking a dive even in a small market like Buffalo's. Announcments for conversions and new builds have been on for a year or three now, but no action. The West Utica project is an example, still no takers a year later even after a price drop, this is why we are not seeing projects like that coffin warehouse in Allentown still not moving forward and Gates tower is more than likely on hold even with the law suts. I think this is a nice article to try and "pump" people up, but lets see which of these projects actually happen.

Gaustad, do you have any statistics such as inventory rising or dropping average sale prices to back up your assertion that EV properties are "not selling at all"? Because I have found just the opposite. In the last six months a single family home on Highland sold within one week for $430,000, a record for its class of property on streets between Delaware and Elmwood, Oakland and Tudor excluded. Another fact that support EV real estate is that from October 2007 to October 2008, the 14222 zip code is the best selling in terms of appreciation and time on the market in all of Erie County. The Elmwood Village's gains and stability haven't reflected the trends of bubble markets across the nation. While the prices and sales are making news now, it has been slowly but steadily appreciating to this point over the last decade. One final note to support the health of the EV market. The Elmwood Village is only of the only areas in Western New York to add population over the last decade rather than lose it. So unless you have some statistics or facts that counter much of what is really happening in the Elmwood Village, I can't say that I've seen home not selling at all. It's true that the credit markets will effect everyone, but it does not have nearly as drasctic effect in WNY and particularly its real estate financing than it does for other areas of the nation. There are plenty of local banks doing great work such as First Niagara and Evans National who haven't missed a beat in WNY residential real estate financing. Good luck to FJF and these valuable projects to the Elmwood Village!

I don't think it's as dire as Gaustad and Onestarmartin say. There's plenty of money in and around Buffalo for high end housing. Several apartments in the Avant building downtown have sold for well over $1 million. The condos on Utica and Lafayette will sell in time, with price adjustment. That's natural in a cautious money climate like today's.

But given the fact that national chains are closing all over the country, including backwater Georgia, is it wise to invest tremendous hope in national chains on Elmwood? They will come eventually. The better measure of a neighborhood's character, vitality, and meaning is the level of public events, theater, music, readings, church and temple life that it supports. And EV is robust in that area. I love shopping as much as anyone, but it's not a sign of sophistication. and a Gucci store, the province of a tiny demographic even in LA or NYC, is the last thing on any midsize city's list of barometers.

My wish list for ELmwood is a fine cafe: old world and romantic. They're ahrd to find anywhere now. My favorite ones are closing in nyc, and Toronto, forget it. But when they work, they're wonderful magnets for a neighborhood.

backwater georgia? oh brother...lol

Emjay the price 430 for the Higland was an anomlay or an outlier and shouldn't factor into the arguement. Since then, three other house went up for sale. One was pulled by the owner after no offers, the other is still on the market with a signifcantly reduced amount (going on 5 months); the other sold but for a $50k reduction in price. Real estate trends are usually desperately out of date by the time you get them, so although your data maybe supported, if you think midtown Buffalo has not been impacted you haven't a clue or smoking way too much grass. To sum up, I can say I have not seen homes sell, but then again I live there.

These projects are not selling. The Elmwood Village (Utica) condo's have been in pre-sale since September 2007. They had 4 committments at one time, and based on the MLS listings, they're now down to 3. And this after design changes to carve up the 4 unit first floor into 6 smaller more affordable units.

$200sq/ft is proving to be too much for this area, let alone the $250 sq/ft they're asking on Lafayette. Standalone homes are running $75-$125 sq/ft. Yes, some people prefer condo-style living (including me), but not at any price.

carlmalone, you are accurate that Buffalo won't escape the impact of the current economic conditions, even the Elmwood Village. However, with regard to the vitality of real estate development here, especially on the residential front, when excellent move-in inventory comes on the market in the EV, it hasn't lasted. I don't want to assume, since I don't know the properties you are talking about directly, but I suspect that the properties pulled off the market or sold for substantially less than list were typical of most city homes that come on the market in that they were in need of a serious update. While the Highland property I quoted may be an outlier in terms of its price and time on the market, I think it accurately represents the health of real estate for sale in the Elmwood Village that is "move in ready" by modern standards. I own a small development company in the city and while you are right on the money about properties in need of work, I have seen a continued interest in properties at the top of the market as long as buyers perceive that they are getting something that they don't have to sink what may be an unknown amount of money and time into for updates. The fear that I have about the financial downturn affecting this market however is not as much real as it is perceived. As someone with knowledge of both residential and commercial financing in the city, the money for most projects or purchases, both residential and commercial is still readily available in this area. The numbers in terms of buyer’s debt to income for residential loans and the size and scope of many commercial projects still make sense in this area to most banks. The problem is that too many people watch CNN and MSNBC and hear how the dire circumstances are affecting the nation as a whole and assume that now is just a bad time to be in real estate no matter where you live. Hopefully local realtors and banks are able to combat that perception and make sure people stay in the market.

Emjay,

Correct you are. Much of the turmoil right now is being caused by scare tactics meant to make it easy for the feds to prop up poorly run companies such as CITI.

If you can pay for a loan you can get a loan. I have been looking into getting a loan and they are throwing the money at me. The phony economy is gone. The real one will not be as go go exciting and once people understand the idea that you actually need to be able to afford the things you buy the economy will settle down. Buffalo is outrageously affordable and that will work to its benefit for a change.

WCP, this is a great article. My Fair City conducted a housing market study last year (by firm Zimmerman-Volk), and one of the recommendations was for new developments very much like the ones described here, within - and sensitive to - existing neighborhood fabrics. That way, people of more market segments - those who want a genuine old house, those who want something new but want to live in a neighborhood with genuine old urban buildings, those who want something new but within an old building, etc. - can be accommodated within existing neighborhoods. This increases economic and social diversity - and vitality - within the urban core. And frankly, it decreases the pressure for some market segments to end up looking only at suburban tracts or patio homes to meet their needs.

On another matter, if the problem with getting rid of the KFC building is a lack of manpower to drive the bulldozer, or swing the sledgehammer, where can I sign up to volunteer--? More likely, remembering our coverage earlier this year (http://www.buffalorising.com/story/kfc_slop), perhaps it's now a hazardous waste site...

It amazed me how people just throw out comments like "homes in the elmwood village have stopped selling" when there is no indication of that at all, and in fact sales are continuing rather well given the circumstances. Of course there may be some slowing due to the global bankiing crisis impacting mortgages, but that would impact all areas equally whether it's Elmwood, Orchard Park, or Clarence.

Well, I for one can account for 3 houses bought in the Elmwood Village area last year and this year, including my own and the house next to mine. I bid over the asking price. There were multiple offers, so when reading the article, I was nodding my head in agreement. The house next to mine sold only just a couple months ago. I don't know what the market is like at the moment, but I remember looking at a number of homes before finding the one I got and I picked this one simply because it was far and away better than the other mammoth houses on the market in that area. Though it's a double, there was a lot less living space to worry about than the other houses I'd seen and it was in much better shape. It had basically been flipped by the previous owner whereas other houses all looked drab and worn. So if there are houses not selling in the area, I would ascribe that to the poor conditions they are probably in, and that they are not indicative of the marketability of the area in general.

Emjay - do you really want to me to start listing homes in the EV that have been sitting on the markert for months....asking prices have steadily dropped. It is a buyers market! The place is over valued.

The person who spent 400k plus in highland must be on crack. There is a house down the street that was listed over the summer for 330 and is now listed for 289....still nothing.....

As for national stores coming to the EV....we do in fact have the dempgraphics, but the EV has blocked national retailers on more than one occasion becuase they believe that a "Gap" will not fit in with the urban landscape. Go figure....

My house is for sale in the Elmwood Village. Great location. Don't let the name fool you.

beat it

rachacha,,,the MY fair city thing is old...rochester is worse of than buffalo...

Is Comparitive Urbanism the only thing this site is about now? Hardly even worth the occasional check-in.

Gaustad, go ahead and list all of these properties that are dropping steadily if you'd like, although I don't think they exist in the number you are suggesting. Just to continue using the Highland example. The house that sold for $430,000 has a four car garage, is completely updated with stunning kitchen and baths and is around 3,000 sq ft. If we are talking about the same comparable house on Highland, it's smaller, has a shed rather than a garage and doesn't have nearly the updates that the $430,000 home had. I'm not suggesting that prices are uniform and because one house sold on that street for one price all homes will get the equivalent. What I am suggesting based on my own experience is that when the inventory is top end, the prices and time on the market will and are still bearing that out. So go ahead and put a list of homes on the market with drastic price drops and lengthy stays on the market. However, if you are honest in your view of the market you will find just as many homes selling quickly for appreciating prices. These variations are an indication of how a healthy real estate market should fluctuate even within itself. Broad general trends like all homes regardless of condition selling within days like much of the overheated markets across the nation experienced is an unnatural economic condition which I think is being evidenced by continually crashing markets across the nation. Any honest assessment of the real estate market of the Elmwood Village will show that it continues to be very healthy.

Gaustad,

I can't believe that you are peddling that discredited EVA vs Gap crap.

meanoldman, im answer to your question as to where a $10 an hpur wage earner fit into the "condo world." the response is that he doesn't. But, the city is full of spacious condoesque housing available through the high inventoried supply all over the city known as public housing. They even look like condos!

Nice ticklefight, guys, but If you make 10 bucks an hour and are looking for a place to stay, try S. Buffalo and forget the condo. I am not knockin' South because I lived there for a minute but it is affordable and offers most neccessities within walking distance if your situation demands that. Hello to all and I look forward to chatting and/or arguing with you.

Steel, what crap am I peddling. These hippis on elmwood ruin everything. This street is an absolute joke. There are a few mediocre places to eat and get drunk..... ZERO sophistication. Bums panhandling. Buildings that haven't been touched in years. It is not in the top ten neighborhoods in the country...iby whose standard!? It is not even the top 100.

Most of all, no shopping. People should be driving in from the suburbs for the day like the do in Boston to shop, eat and hang out....not here!

Steel, you need to leave Chicago and come back here. Hang out at Sunoco on Elmwood and Bryant around 9:00. Let me know how great it is.

hey goose, goto any of the restaurants - they're all suburbanites.

I would love to see retail come to elmwood that would bring in more people. Buffalo fears development and growth. The same people that complain about Buffalo, fear development out side of a few bars restaurants and gift shops. I would love to see a gap, H&M, guess, Express, brooks brothers, footlocker, and even a Maggianos I talian Restaurant open up on elmwood or at Canalside. We should have stores that encourage young people to stay in the city.

The "village" is alive and well. I just sold my 1,500 sq foot house for $7.4 millions dollars. That was 3 million over the asking price and I had 14 offers. This was two days ago. My neighbor sold her house for 14 million dollars. That was 13 million over the asking price. See things are still happening regardless of all those bs things you hear happening on "Wall Street." That is all republican propaganda spread by an irresponsible media. Oh my neighbor just scored some weed, some I'm off to the village.

Guastad,

That gap story is crap because it is made up and if Elmwood is the suck hole of the world that you describe then why would Gap want to be there anyway

1. "It is not in the top ten neighborhoods in the country...iby whose standard!?" By the standard of the organization that gave out the award.

2. "People should be driving in from the suburbs for the day like the do in Boston to shop, eat and hang out" Why would Buffalo be like Boston (or any other of your "sophisticated" shangri-las?)

3. "Steel, you need to leave Chicago and come back here. Hang out at Sunoco on Elmwood and Bryant around 9:00." Don't do it, Steel -- a black person might try to talk to you!

4. "We should have stores that encourage young people to stay in the city." The idea that people would migrate in order to buy crap from different stores is pretty depressing.

Colin - thanks for singling me out....

1.) the organization that gave the award saying that the EV is in the "top ten BEST neighborhoods in the country." what was the name of the organization. How do we know that are reputable or credible? Is there another oranization that creates the same polls that may have a different list?

2.) Steel, what proof do you have that the EV never blocked the GAP? There is more supporting documentation saying otherwise.

3.) Colin, are you still pretending that you are not Black....for the record, I like Black people, just not the panhandlers on Elmwood --- black or white

4.) Elmwood has nothing but "GIFT SHOPS" - the street is not geared toward retaining population, but rather driving it away. It is a nice street, with so much untapped potential

I think the problem with bringing a national retailer to elmwood isn't the demographic or the EVA.

What product is out there for a company like the GAP? The GAP occupies what, about 20,000 sq ft?

Please show me a 20,000 sq ft retail ready building. Or show me a spot where a developer can build the prototype GAP store without ripping apart a neighborhood.

It's not as if EV has a bunch of big box stores sitting empty and the national retailers aren't coming.

A $10/hr wage earner working a 40 hr, week earns $20,200 annually and call it tax free because of the enormity of deductions for dependents. Let's say he is gifted a condo with a mortgage of $500. Subtract that from his annual largesse leaving him $10,200 spendable. Food stamps would not be allowed on that enormous remaining income. Add HOA fees, costs of transportation, utilities, clothing, and all the other costs of day to day living with a large family, could he actually make it? Even if they pinched every last penny. Then consider the EV set. Would they like to share their space with this family? Might they be found some evening at the Sunoco say, after 9 PM, with tin cups in hands?

Gaustad,

I did not know there was supporting evidence showing that EV killed the Gap project or any other. Could you post it here so we could see it. If this is true it is a major scandal and needs to be brought to light!

gaustad --

I wish I could quit you . . .

You're right that the "top 10 neighborhood" thing reflects the particular perspective of the group giving the award. It doesn't mean that the EV is objectively a top 10 neighborhood, as if such a ranking were possible. It's just a feather in the neighborhood's cap.

What proof do you have the the EVA blocked the GAP? The only evidence I've ever seen are claims on BRO, which are then refuted by other posters.

And yes, I am still pretending I'm not black -- and it's working! I'm just like C. Thomas Howell in "Soul Man," except the exact opposite.

What this about a Gap coming to Elmwood Avenue. Let me choose my words very carefully: over my dead body. Not on my watch, not in my City, not in my....

Hey guastad, don't put down Sunoco. That's one of the 200 businesses allowing Elmwood to advertise that it's basically the same as that mall in Cheektowaga only much better. I'd like to see anyone try to buy a can of oil and bag of pork rinds at the Galleria.

Kidding aside though, the Sunoco store is ok. I'll bet it's more useful to neighbors around there than many other businesses are. I doubt carlmalone would've been able to sell his small house in EV for $7.4M a couple days ago if there weren't those kind of conveniences nearby.

DanielSack, holiday greetings to you as well. Congrats about being correct about Starbucks years ago, and for fighting sprawl in Atlanta. The EVA may be trying to attract bigger retailers, but some of what its current leadership does still sends a business-hostile message. About your last point - as Joe the Plumber found out when civil servants dug into a lot of his private data because he dared express an unpopular view to someone powerful who walked down his street while he was playing catch with his son... there's advantages to not being too public nowadays. Now that I think of it, I never saw you and gaustad in the same place. I wonder...

what downturn? i bought a house on bryant last week for $200k and sold it this morning for $1.7 million. The EV is booming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have never parked more than a half block away from my destination on Elmwood. More often directly in front as a matter of fact.

Ironically,there are 2 spots open directly in front of Panos right now.

Chrome: how do you know. Google maps?

This is getting confusing. How did Guastad block Gap? When are we getting the links to the EVA evidence?

www.bufalonews.com/elmwood/gap/city.htm proof EVA blocked GAP

That link does not work. Do you think that EVA sabotaged the News' web site? This is getting scary!

Roger Chinanai? Yeah he's a strage bird...kind of a tool...the office space above LeMtro/Mode has been vacant 7 years because he wont lower the rent...equals a good write off for him though...

Thanks for clarifying the source of the 10 Best Neighborhoods in 2007 designation.

Parking is not a problem on Elmwood. Knowing how to park is the problem. People need to learn the basics as in parallel parking, its on the road test.