Buffalo Rising Online

i agree!!...i dunno i cant see the city or the state letting it just sit there once its all done and built. For which i think the senacas are playing it smart. If you build it....we will make it legal...or legal enough. I think no matter what this is gonna be cool for buffalo

Glad to see it! I can't wait to read the anti-casino crowds reaction for this post! I'm really pumped to read someone's post that will reference a "study" that was done, yet not actually provide any links to said study. I'm also pumped to read real weak arguments about how it will take away jobs from other business and ruin the quality of life. My favorite is the "Sliver Bullet" argument. For some reason the Anti-Casino crowd thinks that people who support the casino believe that it will be the ONE business that will save the city. I'm starting to think that the Anti-Casino people are the ones waiting for that magic business to save us all.

Most rational people believe in diversification of downtown, and this is a start.

By the way I bought a 2 dollar scratch off ticket the other day, I guess I'll see the rest of you Casino supporting people in gambling hell.

So sick of the anit-casino people.....but what about the poor people....going against the stores that run the games and how the odds are bad......why would poor people gamble their life savings away.....work hard, educate yourself.....get a job, if you can't find one here......then relocate! Then make your money and then gamble for recreational purposes......so sick of that crap......this project is not the be all-end all......but if you can pull some tourists and out of town $, like the NF and Salamanca are, coupled with economic spin off from suppliers to the casino and the jobs that are created...then full steam ahead!

This is NOW Indian land. "OUR" government sold the land to them !!! So they will do what they want, rightfully so. Just my opinion. It would be like me selling you my house, then telling you that you can't paint the walls white. I KNOW this isn't the same as gambling ! Just my OPINION.

Its funny how the city was going to sue the Indians a few years back because they were going to build the casino near the airport and not the city. Now they start building and the city says its illegal. This city is such a joke!

I don't see what is wrong with having the CHOICE to gamble your money away. In NYS, we don't have the CHOICE to subsidize a broken system called medicaid.

I think the only dishonest argument between the pro- and con-casino crowd is the "they don't pay any taxes" argument.

Do you read the business section of the paper? Have you heard of an IDA? What percentage of businesses in WNY (or NYS in general) actually pay full taxes? Every manufacturer gets electrical subsidies. Every group that promises to create 5 or 10 jobs gets a PILOT (Payment-in-lieu-of-taxes) deal. The Seneca's agree to pay 25% of slot revenue to the state (and then Buffalo gets a share of that). 25%, of even a portion of revenue, is more than many businesses pay in taxes. Think of that payment deal as a PILOT, and there is little difference between this project and any others.

Oh, there is one difference - this project is worth $330 million, and will create 1000 jobs, at all levels. That doesn't happen in Buffalo every day.

Have any of you people who complain about the competitive advantage that the Senecas are getting ever actually been to the casino in NF? Here's a link to the menu at Blues, their 'normal' restaurant (meaning not a higher end one like the Western Door steakhouse): http://www.senecaniagaracasino.com/pdfs/blues_menu.pdf

Do those prices look like they're set at a level to undercut other local establishments? You think people are going to stop going to their favorite local spot to go to a restaurant at the casino for a $12 hamburger? As for the free drinks - those are for the people gambling. If you aren't at a table or a machine, drinks cost the same as they do at any bar on Chippewa. Even if you are gambling - they charge for anything but draft beer or well drinks.

The casino - which WILL open, you can bet on it (haha) - is simply another choice for people's entertainment dollar. Nobody is looking at it as the savior of downtown, but it will be a nice addition to an already pretty decent assortment of entertainment options.

As for the design - another building downtown that doesn't look like it's 100 years old, fine with me. Mix it up a little bit! Just keep the giant neon feather up north please.

Vivian- hotel demand in NF is through the roof? Why is overall occupancy for the year under 50 percent? Even taking out the Route 62 shacks, demand is NOT thru the roof. If it was- where are all the hotel proposals on the NY side? "Apparently" you are wrong. The proof is there- not one hotel is underway in downtown NF, and the only one on the horizon is the Seneca's. Failure.

flyguy - the canadian casinos are owned by the canadian govt and follow all canadian laws and regulations. They are fully part of the local economy because the govt can design them that way. The senecas can ignore NYS laws and regulations and design it any way they want to keep people inside. The only way NYS casinos could have the same positive affect on WNY would be to LEGALIZE gambling and allow non-sovereign casinos.

Yes! Lets look at this post from Hoss first.

"Have none of you been to Niagara Falls lately? Economically, It's a disaster" That casino is killing all area small business."

Wasn't this the case before the casino was built?

"Plus the building is ugly as hell, and totally out of place."

Oh I forgot the run down houses, parking ramp, and Mall are so beautiful!

"This Casino opening in Buffalo will be the death bell for this city"

How exactly? Where's your proof? What do you suggest?

Lets look at the post from Tuco

"Owner Gary Macri was public in his criticism of the casino's competitive advantages, most notably free drinks and tax-free food, and a policy that allows smoking"

Ok this whole free drink thing is complete BS. This dude makes it sound like you walk in and they give you drinks for playing nickle slots, that's not the case! You have to be spending some dough to get comps. As far as smoking, it has been found that the smoking ban has not caused a loss of revenues for resturants in NYS. The tax free food issue I'm not too aware of, but I do know that the food prices are not so dirt cheap that it would casue another resturant to go out of business, infact the buffet is about 16-20 bones!

We have been given a gift of a natural wonder in our back yard. People come from all over to see it. What do we offer? A nice state park that you can spend 1 day in tops!

The number 2 money maker in NYS is tourism. Despite what some people think, a lot of out of towners visit this area. We should be having a healthy competition with Niagara Falls for their money instead of having a "who can ruin a city faster" duel.

One more from Hoss "I can also avoid the parking headaches on Allan Street and the Chip Strip."

I'm sure the Casino is really going to eat into the crowd at The Pink at 3am on a Friday!

JohnMarko

You do make good points on the Monopoly issue and I agree with you on that point, however I need more info from this statement.

"As to whether it will be good or bad for Buffalo, just look to the NY side of the Falls - the Casino there is a DISASTER for the local businesses. That's a FACT that NOBODY can dispute."

I'm disputing this. Where are the facts, give me some links or something. Niagara Falls has been going under for years now, I have yet to see any reasonable evidence that states it's the casino's fault.

Can anyone say what happens after 15 years when the agreement ends? Does the State or Buffalo get anything? are we stuck with a casino for enternity and with no possible income? and Can anyone identify how the state and the CIty are looking to invest this casino money such that when that day occurs (if this is in fact the case) we are not caught with all the negatives and no positive impact. For example Dubai know that one day its oil income with run out, so they are making large investments in other industries such as tourism to offset the loss. What is Buffalo planning (and can buffalo plan anything given it is receiving peanuts in the deal anyhow)? Becasue, as i understand it, this is a short term benefit. And as anyone should know, the casino is not going to attract enough outside visitors to claim that tourism dollars will offset income loss. When is the last time anyone said, "oh let's get to Detroit and gamble!" It caters mostly to locals just as buffalo will.

Someone please explain the 15 year agreement!

Darrell, it is not the casino's fault that Niagara Falls is going under. Nobody blames the casino. The point is that you can not look beyond the casino jobs for any net benefit to the city. Othere then jobs (which are partly offset by job losses elsewhere) there is little benefit to a casino and Niagara Falls illustrates this quite well.

I am so sick an tired of people giving THEIR OPINIONS on this topic. Are there any real scientific studies that have been done to prove one way or another if this is an overall good or bad? Basically you have one side that says it is good because it:

Brings over a thousand jobs Gives Buffalo a cut of the money that would be spent in Niagara Falls (US or CA) or where ever else local people would go to gamble Does something with land that has sat blighted for years with zero development and *could* spark more development Could attract people from outside the local economy to spend money in Buffalo

Then you have the people who say it is bad because it:

Supplies over a thousand jobs, but most will be low paying and many only go to Senecas leaving the poor in Buffalo poor Does give Buffalo a cut of the money that is being spent elsewhere, but will raise the cost of dealing with "social ills" that arise from gambling and will attract MORE people who would otherwise not drive somewhere else to gamble and would normally spend their money at another local business killing other local businesses Make use of blighted land, but it will not be on the tax rolls ever again, and also casinos in other areas typically do not spark other development. The Senecas have stated that they will not target people outside of the Buffalo area with this casino

So is it good or bad? I think that I have no idea and neither does anyone else until someone really studies this. It could really make a great graduate studies project, anyone from UB agree?

I for one like the Seneca monopoly, because after all the bills are paid, that money stays in WNY. It doesent end up at the HQ of some giant multiNational based in LosAngeles or Vegas or overseas. It stays right here.

Just putting this out here. Rough estimate . 20 people who have posted are in favor and 8 are not and 3 a neutral. This is just from looking at the posts and trying to keep who posted more than once.

NYC

"The point is that you can not look beyond the casino jobs for any net benefit to the city. "

I look at other possible development and never use the job creation arguement. Someone needs to do a study on how hard it is to build in Niagara Falls. Maybe there would be more develpoment if there was less red tape.

"Othere then jobs (which are partly offset by job losses elsewhere) there is little benefit to a casino and Niagara Falls illustrates this quite well"

Last I heard 3,500 more people are employed now in the city of Niagara Falls, not all of these are casino jobs. (I'm looking for the link)

"Darrell, it is not the casino's fault that Niagara Falls is going under. Nobody blames the casino."

Are you sure about that, just spend a few minutes online and plenty of people are blaming them. Not saying any of those people are rational, but those are the people who get heard.

Most state building codes are based on federal code. And the Senecas MUST follow Federal code.

Also if they did not strictly follow building codes, they could not get Insurance on their buildings or contruction financing or any fire protection from the city government.

Darrell-

New York City has some of the worst red tape and yet there is a huge building boom. If a developer will make money, they will find a way to build it.

It would be interesting to see the stats on NF employment. I won't argue that the casino has removed jobs but job gain has always been questionable with casinos. It's not a guarantee one way or the other. I think it would be important however to look at spin-off jobs as well as casino jobs.

and yes there are alot of lunatics yelling one thing or another from both sides of this argument.

Also, where is the freaking plan from the state or buffalo as to how they will target and spend their share of the casino income? How about use it to offest property taxes downtown? What baffles me the most about all this is the fact that neither New York State or the City of Buffalo can illustrate how their share of the pie will be a net benefit to the city or region. If they want to sell the casino to the people, why don't they have a plan? As of now the money will go down the public toilet. It reminds me of route 5, the "just trust us" attitude of New York is sick. Put a FREAKING long term plan together and show us how and why you are spending money.

On a side note. Has anyone driven by or through Batavia lately? That "city" was a dump less that 5 years ago then they had a big push for Batavia Downs race track. Just driving by on the 90 you can see the explosion this city is having. Not saying Batavia Downs is the reason but it probably helped by drawing people in. They have track racing and video gambling machines like slots. The Gambling at Batavia Downs is not killing their economy in any way.

Vivian- If you go from 20 percent occupany to 40- 100 percent!!!! Wow- that's impressive! NOT. Dig into the numbers to see where they came from and where they went to- they're still far below national average occupancy, and Buffalo's for that matter!

I'm glad they're not stopping construction because of some small group of hicks are saying Gambling is illegal on the site. If only Paladino would take note and just build his tower on Court St. already. In regards to the Better Buffalo Group..Did this group ever consider suing local church's? I just past St. Marks Church last evening on Eggert Rd. to find the Entire Parking Lot and Street full of Cars due to BINGO!!! Oh, no, I'm not sure if gambling is allowed on this site, maby they should sue St. Marks. It's probally been going on for 40 something years now and I've never seen any hookers near by or hear of any robberys. But, hell this should'nt go on anymore, not in my back yard....Sound dumb?.. Because it is. The Casino is just one big Bingo Hall taking place 24/7, it's mostly older people and I can't picture this one casino completly turning Downtown Buffalo into the next Vegas as said by the Ciitezens for Better Buffalo leader on the news recently.

I just want some type of explanation for whoever gave me 1 star on my posts? The first one was just stating what I noticed for posts? WHY would that require a one star? Can you please explain why 1 star would be necessary? The second post was giving an example of Batavia. They have gambling and there economy is booming. I didn't say I was for or against I was just pointing out this example. Whoever is so ignorant to just post a star because they feel it does not go with their view is dumb. My posts where not aggressive nor arrogant. Just simply points to keep in mind.

I think that we all agree on is some sort of PLAN to diversify business in the area.

I work right near the Erie Basin Marina, and the difference between this year and last year is amazing. The Commerical Slip has added a lot more foot traffic. Hopefully someone will be able to build some resturants and attractions soon.

On a side note if I was the PR director for the Seneca's I would try and invest in some sort of family friendly Navy Pier like attraction on the water front. This wouldn't quiet all the critics, but it would show that they are trying to invest in the area with something other than a Casino. It would be a good idea to partner with someone else so it's not "soverign land".

Ok, I'll bite:

1. Links to some of the academic studies that show that casinos are bad economic development can be found at http://www.nocasinoerie.org/. You can also find links to pro-casino studies that were bought and paid for by casino operators.

2. The anti-casino people aren't "hicks," or any of the other insulting non sequiturs you want to throw out.

3. Just because something is being built doesn't make it "progress." Just because that building is tall doesn't make it "progress." Just because the project employs people doesn't make it "progress." The urban renewal projects of the 50s and 60s built plenty of tall buildings, and employed large numbers of folks. Not a great example of progress . . .

4. According to the Seneca's own SEC filing, the casino would cater to a local crowd. That means that it would be a tax-free competitor to already existing local businesses. In exchange for harming local businesses, we get to keep 7% of the slot profits.

5. The state has actively encouraged an Indian casino as a way to get around the state constitutional ban on casino gambling. In exchange, they get 18% of the slot profits -- more than 2 1/2 times our cut. Why should we send them so much of our money as a reward for essentially disregarding our constitution?

6. If casino gambling is actually such a viable means of economic development, why the need to grant a tax-free monopoly to another nation?

7. If casino gambling is so beneficial to the host community, why wouldn't the state -- which is dominated by downstate interests -- push for a casino in NYC? Given that New York is already a big tourist draw, a casino there would seem to have a better chance of bringing in outside money. Could it be that the whole casino business is little more than a ploy by Albany to impose what amounts to a tax on already poor upstate communities?

1. Why should we care what people around the country think about us? Businesses looking to relocate research their decisions carefully, they don't rely on an impression of a city's reputation. It's a terrible idea to make big development decisions based on a desire to impress outsiders, most of whom aren't paying attention anyway.

2. Making big development decisions based on how they would affect the skyline is even nuttier.

3. Building isn't necessarily positive. We built the 33, the 190 along the waterfront, and UB in Amherst. All of these projects could have used a little more "foot dragging."

4. I don't understand why you assume that anti-casino people don't do the things you mention. Many of the people involved in the lawsuit or the casino campaign in general have long histories of community involvement.

5. That said, it doesn't matter. The idea that a group formed to address one particular issue must address all issues in order to be legitimate is crazy. For example, the folks working to save the Central Terminal aren't doing anything to reform local schools. So what?! It's not a valid criticism.

1. I'm against the casino. My "better solution" is not to have a casino. Given that I feel a casino would harm the city, a better use of the land would be to let it sit empty.

2. Greater connections between Toronto-NF-Buffalo would be terrific. I don't get what it has to do with a casino, though.

@ Colin, The reason we should care what other people think is because it is better to have a good reputation than a bad one, and that applies to any set of circumstances. Even you have to agree with that. As it relates to businesses moving here, ultimately it must make financial sense for a company to relocate. Companies need employees and if the employees don't want to relocate here because of our reputation (weather, taxes, nothing to do) then they probably won't do the deed. It is not practical to assume you can get the talent you need to make the business a go or take the financial hit while you develop local workers into what you need. This is not just me talking out my ass, either. My company is looking at closing our plant in California and bringing the work here, a big consideration is that no one wants to give up SoCal for Buffalo. The choose unemployment over what they think is waiting for them here. So yeah, we should care what others think.

@ Colin, The reason we should care what other people think is because it is better to have a good reputation than a bad one, and that applies to any set of circumstances. Even you have to agree with that. As it relates to businesses moving here, ultimately it must make financial sense for a company to relocate. Companies need employees and if the employees don't want to relocate here because of our reputation (weather, taxes, nothing to do) then they probably won't do the deed. It is not practical to assume you can get the talent you need to make the business a go or take the financial hit while you develop local workers into what you need. This is not just me talking out my ass, either. My company is looking at closing our plant in California and bringing the work here, a big consideration is that no one wants to give up SoCal for Buffalo. The choose unemployment over what they think is waiting for them here. So yeah, we should care what others think.

1. I don't think anyone has a solution. I don't trust those who claim to have them. I tend to think of things in terms of benefit and harm, instead. And since I think the casino would harm the city, I think stopping it would be one way to make Buffalo a "better place to live and visit."

2. I have a positive vision as well. There are lots of things I think would help: smart regionalism, limiting sprawl, merging IDAs, landbanking failed portions of the east side, encouraging UB's expanding commitment to the city. It's a long list, but you get the idea.

3. I don't understand why a casino has to be part of your vision for the region. It's certainly possible to have such a vision without one. In fact, I'd argue that much of the support for the casino is very shortsighted, based on a desperation to see something get built rather than some larger strategy.

bflorox --

Sure, it's better to have a good reputation than a bad one. I just think the degree to which some people worry about our reputation is sad, and it leads to a kind of desperation that produces bad results. Beyond that, I don't see how building an Indian casino would improve our image. Chasing after Indian gaming reeks of desperation, not dynamism.

blondie --

I don't know about NF, but on the front page of the no casino website they cite a study by the "the National Opinion Research Council, a commercial group associated with the University of Chicago" showing that proximity to a casino is linked to a much higher rate of problem gamblers, and that these gamblers are more likely to have run into serious trouble.

Here's a quote:

In fact, the council found, in its own words, "The availability of a casino within 50 miles (versus 50 to 250 miles) is associated with about double the prevalence of problem and pathological gamblers" and that "pathological and problem gamblers are more likely than other gamblers or nongamblers to have been on welfare, declared bankruptcy, and to have been arrested or incarcerated." (Dean Gerstein, et al., "Gambling Impact and Behavior Study," report to the commission, April 1, 1999).

Indeed, the commission itself was unwilling to conclude that the benefits of gambling exceeded its costs. Instead, it concluded: "We have recommended a pause in the expansion of gambling in order to allow time for an assessment of the costs and benefits . . ."

Hoss... when did i miss the memo that LA got 5 million more new residents this week to beat out NYC as "our nations largest city"

BLONDIE - you ask what this group is for, and Colin is exactly right. They are FOR nothing. They are simply critics against this project. Its easy to be against something - its a lot harder to have your own project and be for something.

Colin is also right that a lot of these people have a history of community involvement. Which is why they should know better, and its sad they wasted $1.9M of the Wendt Foundation's endowment on this misguided opposition.

Besides the legality of the issue... This building project will add to the already changing Buffalo skyline. It is exciting to see this development.

I'm liking everything Blondie is saying, it's all so true. Many people here have never left this area to witness a VIBRANT city, so sad that some here fear it and want to stay the way it is and have no skyscrapers, can care less about the public school system here, or about Tourism, or how the rest of the world rather die than even visit here. So sad.

Listen to yourselfs: Casino = Vibrant = Bigger Skyline. Pathetic. How about two jobs lost for every job created? Impressive. For the unemployment line!

Blondie- NF, NY upgraded? hahahahah. Blondie with Blinders?

BLONDIE and Ava - Here are the numbers:

http://www.economagic.com/em-cgi/data.exe/blsla/lauMT36153803

Exactly four years ago, the unemployment rate in NY, NY was 5.8 percent. Today it is exactly 5.8 percent. In between it has swung from 4.6 to 6.3 percent.

To me, that means the casino is no silver bullet, and is not the end of the world either. So maybe we should all take a breath.

That should be NF, NY, not NYC, obviously.

"BLONDIE - you ask what this group is for, and Colin is exactly right. They are FOR nothing. They are simply critics against this project. Its easy to be against something - its a lot harder to have your own project and be for something."

This is silly to me. The idea that citizens shouldn't oppose an action of their government unless they have some alternative in mind is nuts. They represent us. We're supposed to make demands of them.

Beyond that, the way the statement is framed is inaccurate. I haven't been involved in the campaign, but I can assure you that it hasn't been "easy" for those who have.

Colin - you and I have been through this before. This isn't about a citizen's right to have an opinion. Your opinion that the government shouldn't allow this is as equally valid and legal as mine, that it should be allowed. So no one's rights are being violated.

What I'm saying is, opposition is easier than promotion. It is intellectually and creatively easier to be a critic, than be the proponent. Remember Teddy Roosevelt - to quote partially: "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena."

"Many people here have never left this area to witness a VIBRANT city"

I can't think of a non-Vegas vibrant American city with a casino. Coincidence?

"so sad that some here fear it and want to stay the way it is"

Who wants the city to stay the way it is? Nobody that I know.

"and have no skyscrapers"

Again with the skyscrapers. We have skyscrapers. Adding a new one to the skyline doesn't make us any more successful if it's built on the basis of a bad deal for the city. North Korea built a 100-story hotel in Pyongyang -- it certainly added to their skyline but the project was a disaster.

"can care less about the public school system here"

The casino would do nothing to help the public schools. The tiny casino payout would go into the city budget, not the Board of Ed. budget.

"or about Tourism, or how the rest of the world rather die than even visit here."

Your characterization is false. We get tourism already, and can get more by strategically investing in our assets rather than giving away the store to Albany and the Senecas. And since the Senecas have admitted that the casino would be based on locals, I don't see how it would attract tourists who wouldn't otherwise come to Buffalo. An tax-free hotel would actually hurt tourism, as the Convention and Visitors Bureau relies on bed taxes for its funding.

I think it is easier to let your eyes gloss over with visions of a gold plated skycscaper.

ps --

Yeah, this is an old debate. Still . . .

I don't think that you're necessarily right when you say that "opposition is easier than promotion." We live in a city where people are so desperate to see something done that the landscape favors the promoters, I think. When you combine that public desperation with the politicians' desire to have his picture taken at a ribbon cutting, it seems to me that there's a pressing need for a voice to ask whether these developments are actually a good idea.

It could also be said that, according to that quote, "strong men" like Robert Moses count while "critics" like Jane Jacobs don't. That's not what history suggests to me.

I used to be against the casino, but now I am moderately for it. I wish we had industry back, but even if we did, it wouldn't locate in downtown. I wish we had retail back, but e-commerce over the internet has changed things, and again, I don't think big department stores will locate in a downtown. We have office buildings and restaurants, but to really work, downtowns these days have to offer experiences and this casino will help do that.

I have concerns about the potential negatives, but there are ways to mitigate these. Please Buffalo, don't screw this up; proceed cautiously and wisely.

how will the casino effect you negatively? I am just picturing whole crowds of families morphing into Ralph Bucky Phillips. The spirit and spin of the big wheel is too attractive for our oliver twist economy, save yourselves from this adulterist on our State's Emblem !

something like this has never happened on these lands. If only we could have brought a lawsuit on Issa for not pissing us off enough.

I decided to take some time out and read some anti casino research from some of the above people. Mainley this one http://www.library.ca.gov/crb/06/04/06-004.pdf. i figured it was from California so it was pretty close to NY as far as population and crime, etc.

I have come to the conclusion that all the research can be taken both ways. Each nugget of research can be argued for both ways, hands down. It was quite exhausting actually. It reminded me of that argument about car accidents. You know the argument that states "most accidents happen near your home". Basically most accidents happen within a 30 mile radius of your home. Well that would make sense because most people work near their house, and unless their going on vacation every week then of course there is a higher probability of them getting in an accident near their home.

Basically the research concludes that most people that live near casinos go to them more then people who don't live near them, but don't necessarily spend as much money.

Almost all the research states that poor people lose more money persentage wise gambling. This includes lotto, tracks, casino's etc.

It also states that wealthy college educated people spend the most money at casinos. This same group is the highest visitors of casinos.

Actually most of the research made me even more pro casino. However if you are anti-casino you will find reasons that reiterate your position, so this argument is pretty much moot.

I'm at the point where I'd rather argue about politics and religion, because we are not changing any minds

Let me respond to BuffaloPaul

"Can someone mention one city that has been turned around by casinos? Then, let's compare it to Buffalo scenario for discussion. "

Thanks for the soft ball Paul, here's your answer

Tunica Mississippi

magnum, the only way this casino could possibly be a shot in the arm is if it attracts outsiders yet you say that it won't. Therefore all it can do is divert local spending. What is the benefit of that? What is that spending being diverted from?

That Federal judge can kiss my ass!! Go Seneca's. Show Buffalo how to really accomplish something and to actual finish a damn project.

I was not all for the Casino, but I think it is hilarious and necessary for a project of this magnitude to carry on at this point.

Itl speaks volumes to the obstructionists.

It is unfair to compare this project to Niagara Falls. NF has been in shambles for a long time....it is not a result of the Casino. As a matter of fact, the Casino seems to be slowly turning things around there.

Buffalo is a cold, dark, boring city, most of the year. The Casino will add another venue and some much needed energy and will solidify plans for Bass Pro.

JUST DO IT!

Paul Buffalo,

Thanks you proving me right!

You asked, and I gave you a solid example, which by the way you concluded was a success.

Here's your quote from the one post

"Can someone mention one city that has been turned around by casinos? Then, let's compare it to Buffalo scenario for discussion."

Now you admit that the casino was a success.

"It does seem, though, that Tunica is a success. Las Vegas is a success, too. These two are similar because their economies now rely on gambling and both would falter without that revenue stream."

I just want you to re-read what you wrote a couple times!

Tunica was a dump before hand, now it's actually nice. Again I'm not saying that the Casino will "save" Buffalo, but I'm also not saying Buffalo will be the next Vegas. You specifically asked has a city "been turned around by casinos" and I gave you one example. Most people have never heard of Tunica. I didn't' give you the typical Vegas/Atlantic City answer. Instead I gave you a solid answer that you had to google to find out about it. Again no rational person believes that a casino will be a silver bullet to Buffalo's problems, nor will it be a determent to the city.

The you say this

"Crime increased from 689 cases in 1991 to 11,100 in 1996!'

So it was bad over 10 years ago! Also I don't know where you got your stats, everything I've read says that this area is way below the country in violent crime! What crime are you talking about exactly? For all I know you could be talking about parking tickets!

I have to call you out on this garbage

"It's located 30 miles south of Memphis and 150 miles east of Little Rock AR, so it has a casino market monopoly"

So what? They have something someone else doesn't. What's your point? According to people on this site local people wont be able to resist the addictions of gambling. Are you suggesting that people as far as 150miles away will visit Buffalo! If so then that's great!

"I don't have time to check data, that can be inaccurate and subject to interpretation as well as relfective more so of the greater economic landscape than just a simple casino can reflect. Take a look around, take a drive around the Falls."

You don't help your argument by declaring facts to be less useful than casual observation.

"Anti-casino people are anti-progress."

Uhh, nope. I'd love to see real progress. A casino ain't it. Who on earth is "anti-progress?"

"That Federal judge can kiss my ass!! Go Seneca's. Show Buffalo how to really accomplish something and to actual finish a damn project."

Yeah, the rule of law sucks, doesn't it?

Also, it's funny that people think the Senecas are some kind of example of how to get things done. They were granted a monopoly in their field, and sovereignty in the area that they want to build. Give the same package to Paladino, or Savarino or anybody and watch how quickly things would get built.

Apples and oranges.

Darrell --

I don't want to speak for PaulBuffalo, but I think his point was obviously that Tunica isn't a valid comparison to Buffalo. Buffalo would be 1 casino in an area that's already awash in them, while Tunica has many casinos in an area that has few. The result is that Tunica is a gambling destination, while Buffalo would serve locals. Tunica brings money into the area, while Buffalo wouldn't.

On crime, Paul never says that Tunica has more crime than the rest of the country, merely that crime went up when the casinos went in.

Really, none of this is that difficult.

This will be the nicest Smoking Joe's this side of the Cattaraugus River!

Wow, what a waste of energy, obviously the pro vs ant-casino perspectives are not going to convince the other side. Only time will tell whether the opening of this casino will be positive or negative for Buffalo but as I´ve said before the casino will not make or break buffalo. We can never truly know which businesses will fail or succeed until well after they open, the doers will continue to act and the complainers will continue to complain, everyone in their right. I just would like to see some of this energy put into some constructive action instead of constant bickering.

Colin

"On crime, Paul never says that Tunica has more crime than the rest of the country, merely that crime went up when the casinos went in"

So did the population, so crime going up is expected.

Paul, you asked to give an example, and I did. Then you wanted to compare that example to Buffalo, which was shot down by Colin and you agreed with "I think his point was obviously that Tunica isn't a valid comparison to Buffalo"

I could name any city and I bet it would get shot down becasue it's not a clone of Buffalo.

"Buffalo would be 1 casino in an area that's already awash in them, while Tunica has many casinos in an area that has few. The result is that Tunica is a gambling destination, while Buffalo would serve locals"

Awash? You mean the 3 other's in the area?

I went to school in Tennessee, I know a lot of people who live in Memphis, and they go to Tunica a lot. It's about 30-45 minute drive so I consider that local.

My main problem is the fact that somehow people have forgotten that a lot of people from out of state visit the falls. Just go there for a day and look at the licence plates. We have been given a gift and people choose to spend time and money across the border. Like it or not we have to become a destination.

I'm all for development in Niagara Falls as well as Buffalo, and I think it's starting to happen a little more then in the past. However I think as time goes on with these threads things become black and white, which they really aren't. I understand the problems that come with the casino and i'm willing to take those over nothing. That's my choice.

On a seperate note we really need to get the Dino in Buffalo.

I agree with Colin, its not about the data but what the reality is. The reality is Niagara Falls NY has not seen much benefit from the casino and in fact the area surrounding it has DECLINED even more. But hey don't let facts get in the way, casinos must be good because gambling is good and monopolys are good and tax free is good, right?

Colin -

You wanna see real progress? What do you think a 24 story hotel and casino destination is?

Some of you people need to look at the ENTIRE scope of what is going on in that area of town. The renovating of the waterfront, Bass Pro, the casino and everything else on the drawing board for down there. It will ALL work TOGETHER to add a vibrant destination spot in downtown for residents and out of town guests.

No one is saying that the casino is the savior of Buffalo - just that it is part of a larger plan to add vibrancy to downtown.

Per the agreement does anybody know what happens after 15 years?

I moved to Buffalo 4 years ago from a city with a vibrant economy and I have witnessed the blight of this city and the people that live here. Over the past 4 years I have seen the same arguments raised time and time again, the city searching for a silver bullet solution to the economic issues, such as a new peace bridge, bass pro, and the downtown casino. Frankly, the desperation is embarrassing.

The entire Casino argument deconstructs down to pretty simple terms. “Will a downtown casino bring money to buffalo from outside economies?” If the answer is no, then the casino will bleed this city economically (yes, casinos make a big profit on the backs of their customers, and if the only customers are local residents, fill in the blank) if the answer is yes, then how much and who will benefit.

Will it create real jobs (not minimum wage) for the long term, will it reduce taxes, will it spawn other business opportunity (not paycheck cashing places and pawnshops,) will the community as a whole benefit, and how much?

Does anyone know of a true study that measures the tourism benefit and monetizes the benefit to the community?

Have the Senecas build a new convention center for the region add in a few slot machines and another seneca casino in the falls and its a win win for both sides!

With the emerging cobblestone entertainment area slowly coming around, a seneca convention center would add so much vitality along with there enormous hotel to this part of teh city and unlike the casino would actually bring out of towners to the area

Shame on the Wendt Foundation! What a waste of $2 million. $2 million that they could have invested in making Buffalo better.

This project will create jobs with an average salary of $35,000 and benefits. I have friends working as dealers at the Niagara Falls casino that are making as much as $60,000 with tips.

This $333 million development will also create hundreds of construction jobs during the new construction and years after with improvements and renovations.

The Buffalo Creek Casino will deliver $5 million to $7 million per year in local revenue share to the city, compared to $31,000 which had been paid in local taxes on the 9-acre site.

Seneca Gaming Corporation has been a partner with local businesses, spending more than $90 million with local vendors and suppliers at there existing casinos and hotels. The Buffalo Creek Casino will create more opportunities for local vendors and suppliers.

Since 2002, Seneca Gaming Corporation has created approximately 4,200 new jobs in the Western New York economy. These are good paying jobs with health benefits, paid vacations, etc... The Seneca Gaming Corp. respects their employees and treats them very well. These jobs will always be here. There will never be the threat of moving out of state or to Mexico. That can't be said for other businesses in WNY (see American Axle).

For all the green space people this project includes a 3-acre public park to be located in the northwest corner of the site. I've seen the plans for this park and they are fantastic. It will be a nice addition to the coblestone district.

A Park!?!? A veiled attempt to isolate the casino compound from the remainder of the city and keep the patrons on-site and emptying their pockets and sliding their charge cards.

chevy --

A "24 story hotel and casino destination" isn't necessarily progress. Progress would make our city wealthier, or better able to compete in the future. There's plenty of reason to think that the casino will actually make our city poorer, by harming existing business and enriching Albany at our expense. And a casino can't be seen as some sort of strategic investment in our future, either.

Building does not equal progress. The people of Springfield built a monorail, an escalator to nowhere, and the world's largest magnifying glass -- plenty of building, no progress.

Exactly Colin!

AvaRouge ~ "A Park!?!? A veiled attempt to isolate the casino compound from the remainder of the city and keep the patrons on-site and emptying their pockets and sliding their charge cards."

The park will be public and can be entered without going into the casino or hotel. It's not an attempt by the Senecas to keep you "on-site". Please, get over it!

The park will be a great place to let people know about all the other things Buffalo has to offer.

They don't have to build a park, they could use that 3-acres for more casino space.

Perhaps a park is in the plans because it will provide some much needed green space to that area.

Now the people against this project are going to criticize the 3-acre park (omg! slap hand on forehead.)

The Senecas park will be tax-free competition to existing local parks . . .

Colin - again you aren;t seeing the entire picture......

Will people go to gamble at the casino simply because it is there......maybe a few people. People who WANT to gamle are going to gamble regardless. If the casino is not in Buffalo - they will go elsewhere. You aren't gonna be twisting people's arms to go there and spend money they weren't intending to spend anyways.

It IS progress as it WILL enrich the economy by bringing in people that normally would go elsewhere to spend their money - and it WILL provide 1500 good paying jobs as well.

I am in NW PA - PEOPLE FROM DOWN HERE TO UP TO SENECA NIAGARA ALL THE TIME FOR ENTERTAINMENT, CONCERTS AND GAMBLING. Many have said they are excited to be able to go to one in Buffalo instead of going all the way to NF or into Canada. Yes we have one closer in Salamanca - but that is all that is there - a casino - nothing else.

I go up to Buffalo all the time. I would go to the casino and then I would hit Chippewa, Chophouse Anchor Bar, Pearl Street - you name it.

The point to the anti-casino crowd......if you don't like it - DON'T GO. Don't try and abolish the project simply because you don't like it. It is really that simple.

chevy --

It's great that you would spend money here. But according to the Senecas, you'd be in the minority. Most custoemrs would be locals, sending their money out of town.

"Don't like it -- Don't Go" is silly. Where else does this kind of thinking apply? "Don't like the war -- Don't enlist?" How about "Don't like pollution -- Don't breathe?" Nonsense. In my opinion, a casino would harm my city. That affects me whether I personally would go to it or not.

Colin, How about "Don't like Cigarettes, don't smoke them" or "Don't like High Speed Limits, Don't drive on the highway" or "Don't like alcohol, Don't drink".... We haven't outlawed Cigs, going fast or booze. (which all have their own potential hazards just like gambling) We just regulate them and let FREE adults choose for THEMSELVES whether to partake or not.

The one thing I hate more than the government telling me what I can or cannot do with my hard earned money is a private group of citizens forcing the government to tell me what I can or cannot do with my own money,

P.S. I don't even gamble...

B-loLaw - you can gamble all you want. the government isn't stopping you.

B-Lo --

The difference, of course, is that smoking and drinking are perfectly legal in NYS, while casino gambling isn't. Smoking and drinking are taxed, while casino gambling isn't. And cigarettes and alcohol aren't state mandated monopolies. So when the state tries to do some cynical end run around its own laws to establish a casino, that seems like a good time for some public comment.

I don't care if you (or anybody) gambles or doesn't.

the Wendt foundation partly made its decision based on the cost of this lawsuit vs future cost associated with the treatment of gambling addicts. they opted for the cheaper of the two.

"Clearly, the Wendt Foundation would rather see these people selling crack at a streetcorner than work in an evil casino."

Has anyone else noticed that the pro-casino folks haven't exactly distinguished themselves in this debate?

So Colin, you've distinguished yourself in this debate? You stand above others in character and attainment?

Are your views on this matter to be taken more seriously? Should they carry more weight? Are your views on the casino more likely to be constructive to society as a whole? Do your extraordinary skills, abilities and wisdom render you especially fit to govern us all on this matter?

Please, give me a break!

You can't ignore these facts:

-This project will create jobs with an average salary of $35,000 and benefits. I have friends working as dealers at the Niagara Falls casino that are making as much as $60,000 with tips.

-This $333 million development will also create hundreds of construction jobs during the new construction and years after with improvements and renovations.

-The Buffalo Creek Casino will deliver $5 million to $7 million per year in local revenue share to the city, compared to $31,000 which had been paid in local taxes on the 9-acre site.

-Seneca Gaming Corporation has been a partner with local businesses, spending more than $90 million with local vendors and suppliers at there existing casinos and hotels. The Buffalo Creek Casino will create more opportunities for local vendors and suppliers.

-Since 2002, Seneca Gaming Corporation has created approximately 4,200 new jobs in the Western New York economy. These are good paying jobs with health benefits, paid vacations, etc... The Seneca Gaming Corp. respects their employees and treats them very well. These jobs will always be here. There will never be the threat of moving out of state or to Mexico. That can't be said for other businesses in WNY (see American Axle).

rb66- when does the agreement end? nobody seems to know and i only ask because i think it is a significant fact here. i understand 15 years...is there a renewal? renegotiate? what? if the city gets squat after 15 years this is a horrible deal for the city. as is it's not great but after 15 years if there is no revenue going to the city then that solidifies my opposition. I've been on the fence although leaning one way more then the other(if it wasn't obvious).

rb66 --

Nope, I never said anything about myself or my "extraordinary skills, abilities and wisdom." Way to build that strawman, though.

But yeah, I think the anti-casino folks come out of this looking better than our opponents. Whether you agree with our position or not, we've made fairly rational and consistent arguments. We haven't called called people names, like "boob" or "hick." We haven't suggested that "driving around Niagara Falls" is a better means of gauuing the truth than an objective study. We haven't made outlandish claims about our opponents, like claiming that the Wendt Foundation prefers crack dealers to casino workers. We haven't made bizarre leaps of logic, like claiming that church bingo is somehow equivalent to casino gambling. We've tried to focus on whether the deal works for the city, rather than being distracted by the promise of a new building or an abstraction like "progress." Etc.

Buffalonians need to wake up and realize that this deal sucks! Why do we always feel the need to shortchange ourselves. Albany is getting 25% of the casino profits and we are getting 25% of that! We should be demanding that we get at least a third of the profits exclusively for the city! If not this casino does not make sense. There is no plan to build any sort of neighborhood or new entertainment district around this casino behemoth. This project is destined to become another blow to this region just like Rich stadium and the UB north campus. Wake up people! There have been studies done and this will not work, make the senecas build a convention center on the casino site. Lets finally get over this Silver Bullet saving Buffalo mentailty we all are apart of and realize we dont need to make stupid not well thought out decisions just to satisfy our desire for immediate results. Sorry to tell you Buffalo wasnt built up in one day during its hey day in the early 1900's it took many citizens and smart businessman making smart well thought out decisions to create what we have with special attention payed towards the future benefits of every major project. This casino will truly bring this city back 20 years and negate all of the slow but steady progress that we have achieved in recent years. If the city does not get a bigger cut and if there is no plan for the immediate area (the parking lots surrounding the casino site) to bring in tourists, then this casino will absolutely drain money from this poor regions pockets and go down in Buffalo history as another stupid mistake to add to the long list of stupid mistakes. I was pro-casino until i researched the facts and let me tell you i am not going to sit by and let this casino bring us back. I am looking and fighting for the city we all love and its future not two years from now but 15, 20 or 30 yrs from now.

Whether its legal or not or if its built or not, it doesn't matter. I'll still play poker with my friends, buy fireworks in PA, go to the nearest store in my proximity for cigarettes. How many penny pinchers are in Buffalo where you'd really be concerned about people taking a trip to the casino for a shopping day? Look, it's real easy to get fired up about stuff. I get fired up when lose my keys. But at this point in the city, what is really the worst that can happen with this casino? Frankly, as an avid drinker, I'm not going to go gamble my money away for "free" drinks. By the time you're done popping money in the slot machines, you've already spent more money than you would for a couple drinks anywhere else. Not to mention, this isn't some resort that is the one and only stop for everything. I maybe go to the casino in Niagara Falls once every six months, spend some money there for an hour, and then go look for something else in the area to do. I can't imagine that's abnormal behavior. Niagara Falls has been crap for as long as I can remember. Now they have a casino so as far I see it, that's at least something. There is constantly a ton of traffic in that area. They need to find a way to capitalize on it and as far as why that ISN'T happening, is the city's fault... not the Seneca's. If Buffalo wants to make the most of the casino, invest and build around it immediately.

well said downtownjunkie. lack of planning associated with the casino and the miserable cut we get from the state's share that will eventually dry up puts this project in the hole for the city.

reflip --

1. The study i mentioned way back in this thread claimed that proximity to a casino increased problem gamblers by 50%. You may find that credible or not, but I didn't pull the claim out of think air.

2. I think people will change their behavior -- ie gamble more -- because a casino is an inducement to gamble. It seems unreasonable to assume that a casino will exist on money that people were already going to gamble with. A casino isn't going to put bookies out of business -- it's gonna create more gambling to go along with that which already exists.

3. If people are going to spend more on gambling, or entertainment generally, that money has to come from somewhere. Some of that money will likely be generated by the casino itself -- some new jobs, some additional business for vendors, etc. But it seems reasonable to assume that most of it will come either from people spending money that that they really can't afford -- a bad social outcome -- or from people cutting back on their spending at existing, taxpaying businesses -- a bad economic outcome.

4. Given these bad outcomes, it isn't surprising that local religious communities and the Buffalo Niagara Partnership have come out against the casino. And when both God and mammon oppose a project, well that gets my attention.

This is SOOOOO not about shoving YOUR religious views down our throats - you try that and they will immediately be shoved right back in your face.

Nothing pisses me off more than someone preaching to me about what I can and cannot do. I can make my own choices for myself thank you.

Personally I could care less what ANY religious group wants. They are not my voice and they will not dictate to me what can or cannot be present in the community and tell me what is good or bad.

- Colin - you are shoving your ideals here - and that is not good. Like I said - just because YOU don't like it - doesn't mean everyone should dislike it. If you don;t like casinos - DON'T GO!

You wanna ban bars too? people can be alcoholics in bars - bars are evil. No one should be able to go to them anymore because of a weak few that can't be responsible - right??

chevy --

1. I'm an atheist. My views on the casino have nothing to do with my religious views. You've misunderstood what I said. Anyone who is familiar with the Bible, either as a religious scripture or as a piece of literature, would recognize my reference to the injunction that "you can't serve both God and mammon." The fact that the most prominent business organization and ecumenical religious organization in the area would agree on the casino issue seemed striking to me, since they tend to approach things from very different angles. That's all.

2. I don't care what you do, or don't do. If you want to gamble, go right ahead. My beef is with the state, and to a much lesser extent, the Senecas. Opposition to a casino in Buffalo is not the same thing as trying to tell you not to gamble. Obviously.

3. Religious groups -- or any other part of the anti-casino campaign -- are not "your voice," it's true. They're their own voice, and they'll advocate for their own position. I don't see how this is so hard to understand or accept.

4. Religious groups -- or any other part of the anti-casino campaign -- aren't trying to dictate anything to you. Why would they? They're trying to dictate to the state, which is a perfectly normal and legitimate thing for a group of citizens to do.

5. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but all politics and advocacy is based on "shoving your ideals" on others. When a Republican government is in power, republican ideals are shoved on lots of people who disagree with them. When preservationists succeed in saving an old building, their ideals are shoved on those who would prefer a demolition. That's life in a democracy.

reflip --

1. You're right that there is a casino close by in NF, so maybe the increase in problem gambling won't be worsened by one in Buffalo. I don't know -- the study didn't break it down any further than a 50 mile proximity. But it doesn't seem crazy to think that greater proximity might mean a worse impact on problem gambling.

2. I'm really trying not to make a moral argument. When I mention that some people might bet money they can't afford to lose, I'm not tsk-tsking them out of some sense of offended morality. I'm worried about the economic and social impact of their losses.

3. As for the Senecas being locals, in one sense you're right. They live in the general area. But they don't pay taxes and are shielded from regulation and other forms of local public intervention. There are all sorts of ways -- beyond market pressure -- that local businesses are forced to behave in ways that respect local sensibilities. The Senecas are shielded from that. But again, my beef is really with the state.

It seems so me that if groups against the casino used their gobs of money on a tangible project like knocking down old houses and puting in a park or community center funded by the group, or a support group for gamblers who are already suffering that Buffalo would be a better place for it. I would be interested in knowing how much money these groups spend vs. what they actuall stop.