Buffalo Rising Online

here, here!!!!

So why didn't they speak up when the state was having hearings?

How can you argue with that kind of additional cash. Plus that cash will pay for the change in the plans with a lot left over and it will make the waterfront much easier to access. What is the downside??? Let's get it done!

$500k an acre? Someone should check their comps

Could BR go down at drive time an take pictures of the back-ups? Keep it mind is in a construction zone. Just how much of this traffic in the past got off at Tift and Ridge roads to prohibit any back ups at the first signal in Lackawanna? I can't imagine it to be that large of a number to mitigate backups from forming there. A portion of the commuters could divert to 90 to go south. The rest would actlimate to a road with properly timed signals for rush hour.

This couple mile spur with only 2 notable exits is rediculus to keep. Give Buffalo back at least portion of its waterfront. Right now the waterfront is limited access highway from the Lackawanna border up to the Tonawanda border. Why should Buffalo's waterfront be walled 24 hours a day, 7 days a week becasue of current peak use 2 hours a day 5 days a week, especially on this spur? Why have a small strip to develop when we could open endless posibilites east? A total integration of the nature perserve? Want the grain elevators gone/replaced/reused? Then allow the possibility for development to spread from the lake front out to them. even is it takes 20-30 years, at least it not be walled off.

In the past we could only dream of layouts such as Downtown's streets radiating non-stop right to the water. Here we have an opprtunity to turn a similar dream into reality instead of leaving ourselves to be stuck dreaming for 50+ more years. If we plan for the same old we will be stuck with the same old. Let downtown and S. buffalo connect to the water.

The NYDOT itself called the boulavard a viable option with negligible addition to commute times. City's much larger than Buffalo have removed waterfront elevated highways and replaced them with boulevards to great success (San Fran).

When this was built, like the 190 these highway "hid" industry. Well the industry is gone and we are still left with these walls. Sieze this opportunity to knock one of them down. Best of luck on this effort for actual progress. As for why people didn't speak up sooner, who knows? By time I found out about this the desision was made.

I like the River Keepes vision so much better. Where's Higgins on all of this?

"There's an oft-repeated fallacy that if Route 5 and the skyway don't go away to be replaced with a boulevard that there is no waterfront for people to enjoy."

who said no developmet? what people are saying is that they want construction for long range development. Why settle for 1 block of development from the water before you hit a raised earthen highway wall when you could have the possibility of endless blocks as demand dictates?

I'm pretty sure the city council went on record as being for the boulevard after looking at other cities that did the same. Who knows about the mayor? Higgins jumped on board for the current plan. I guess he tired of fighting ;)

Another example of Albany knowing whats best for Buffalo and Western NY better than the residents who live and work here!

This is completely ass backwards....its our regional transportation department...its supposed to be run and managed locally....but its just a facade...following the dictates of albany

Thats what Buffalonians need to be fighting for....these local authorities are supposed to be local institutions for the betterment of the local economy and the local residents...not albany...and we should be fighting for local control of ALL our institutions.

Alright, Riverkeeper! Way to go keeping up the pressure on this. And what a smart approach, making moot the counter-arguments against the boulevard that the money isn't there, or that with shovels already in the ground the project is set.

This project has implications beyond Buffalo - all over upstate (including here in My Fair City) we have grade-separated expressways that have sliced and diced our urban areas and need to be upgraded (I can't bring myself to use the standard parlance, 'downgraded') to surface boulevards, or even eliminated. This project will set an important precedent - and needs to set the right one.

It seems to me that the time has never been better to regroup the boulevard coalition and press this, especially in light of the positive Esmonde piece in the Buffalo News recently. Link here:

http://www.buffalonews.com/donnesmonde/story/406048.html

There are also several key political advantages at the moment: we have a new governor, so whatever deals were reached in the previous administration to allow the DOT's preferred option to go ahead no longer need hold. We also have an unusually high number of state legislature seats in play, and all the politicians who want to show their bonafedes in standing up to the Albany Bureaucrats on behalf of what their local constituents are making a compelling case for, will be likely to offer their support. At whatever point it becomes clear that the likely 2009 state delegation from Western New York is solidly behind the boulevard option, and opposed to the way the DOT is handling this, there could quickly be a U-turn. Then sit back and enjoy watching DOT officials pat themselves on the back for being responsive to local input...

...and given all the back-slapping that accompanied the opening of the canal harbor project, it's beyond me how some public officials seem not to have gotten the message that Buffalo won't sit still for the future of its waterfront being determined by state bureaucrats.

RonR, what an awesome case you make in your comment - Amen!

77 acres is several times the existing Waterfront village, it is a lot of potentially taxable land. Some 40% of buffalo's land is nontaxable.. those are not just all churches. This would end up costing the city money is lost revenues in perpetuity. Who freaking cares about an extra 5 or even 10 minute commute time. Not city tax payers, so why the hell do we have to compromise our own future because of some perceived desire of southtown residents and commuters? But then again even the Hamburg mayor think the current Route 5 plan is wasteful.

I don't see Amherst, Clarence or Wheatfield doing anything that compromises their tax roles or livelihood for the benefit of city residents, why must we?

Maybe Buffalo needs to learn its place in the world and just accept any crap that is foisted onto its citizens

"In my opinion the ONLY thing broke in WNY is the mindset of those who live here and their voting habits. Everything else just needs a little common sense and an ounce of vision."

Dito that!

Just curious but what did our elected officials say was the "best alternative"? Also for the record, while the sentiment is nice, but no parcel on the outer harbor has ever sold for anywhere close to $500,000 and acre, further, if your assume such a price due to the endless possibilities of development- think again, the outer harbor is one of the most heavily polluted areas in the region. The complete cleanup of the outer harbor was estimated to cost over $200 million (there were other options that allowed for development on some of the land in the $50 million range). Connected, unconnected, elevated or un-elevated- no sizable development is going to take place until we deal with the elephant in the room, the one that is actually hindering development.

1)of coarse the current set-up is too curvy. It's a detour. The new boulevard would follow the current path of the elevated highway. 2) of coarse Toronto makes do with their highway there. There is enough land pressure there for people to be wlling to deal with living next to an ugly elevated highway next door. 3) If shrinking is your plan, then it makes sense to make this area urban and dense so the county can shrink back in on itself. Buffalo should not be dsigned as a highway pass-through while we question why eveyone is passing right through. 4) If we are worried about costs, look at the long range costs of maintain two roads, brdiges etc for the next 50 years when we could just build one now with no bridges to maintain etc with some slightly higher up front costs.

I agree to do it right or not at all, why blow our money on a half-a55 job? but we can see they already started spending it so fight to do it right.

Well said all around RonR

and you could pry add that that half of any acreage that remains after roads and buffers is accounted for would be surface lots because everybody would have to drive there coming off the highway. It also does not take into account land available on the otherside of the boulevard that would also be within eye-sight of (connected to) the water instaed of walled off from it.

Defer everything that can be deferred, except for a basic at grade road. This should help compensate for any cost increases.due to alterations in the plan.. Then , in the futue, as money become available phase in the landscaping, sidewalks, and other amenities.

Since the project IS being done it should be done right weather Buffalo is shrinking or not. The economy of Buffalo is irrelevant in this subject. The road IS being built why not do it so that it is most advantageous and less wastfull of resources. Spending money to make 2 roads at this site instead of one is indefensible.

As for not opening up prime land for development because of a shrinking metro population - funny how that argument is never made when each new suburban subdivision is planned

Fantastic visuals.

It's never too late to do the right thing. This compromise could be a great victory announcement for Congressman Higgins, if he is so obliged. He'd be a hero!

This sounds like a horrible idea, let me get this straight. We shut off convenient access from the south by closing off Route 5 and the Skyway. We take out convenient access from the east by closing off the 33, and from the north by taking out the Niagara Section.

This sounds like a very myopic and ill conceived plan. I am confident that this will give future generations of Buffalonians a single focal point for the further demise of our Business District. Don't get me wrong, in the short run we may see some people move to Buffalo, probably fill in some areas of the city and buy out the waterfront condos or other residential projects. I am sure that this will put the government in the good graces of the developers, and will pay off some overdue debts and favors owed.

I am confident that this angle will be bled dry by our Mayor, and Congressmen, as a saving grace for Buffalo, but in the end it will result in further migration of business from the area and the next nail in the coffin for the City of Buffalo.

Im not so sure this is the end of the story....Brown and Higgins just want the money spent ... its as simple as that...

the bigger picture is that the money will get spent whether its an expressway or a boulevard.

The difference is that there are alot of people in Buffalo that do not want the expressway anymore than Lackawanna and Blasdell and Hambuirg wanted an expressway.

The right stand would be to stop rimming Albanys ass and make albany work for Buffalo! These institutions were created for local control and for local projects not albany's dictates over us. If Higgins and Brown wanted high popularity, then they would stand up for local control and the will of the local people.

RonR,...one of the Railroad tracks along Niagara Street is the old Beltway and the other is the CSX to Niagara Falls.

on a side note with the growth of the Seneca Niagara and positive devlopments in Niagara Falls....a regional project would be a commuter rail between Buffalo, Niagara Falls, Lockport, Medina and Rochester on some of the rarely used freight tracks that follow 104. Integrating Buffalo, Niagara Falls and Rochester would go along way towards taking the next step in our regional development.

Bravo! We should look to alternate forms of transportation in order to plan for the future. We must move away from the outdated modes of transportation that exist today and look instead to a time when cars will only be used as a necessity. I am all for the plan to renovate this entire area to create a slower boulevard that is conducive to bicycles, pedestrians, retail shopping, dense residential, and small industrial. A boulevard that you could access by boat or vehicle.

The one piece that I would like to see is a solid plan for rapid transit from the southtowns. I believe that the return on investment would be even greater if mass transit was included in the plan.

We are going to reach a time when it is no longer feasible for people to live in Holland or South Boston and commute to the city. These residents are going to need to move somewhere very close to work when gas prices hit the $20.00 per gallon. They will also need to move closer to the city when the only cars available are small commuter cars that cannot handle the ice and snow of the southtowns. Add global warming to that mix and people will flock to the city and first ring suburbs.

We must prepare for 2020 and beyond!

There really isn't a need for through trucks to travel in this part of the city. They should take the 290 to the 90 for east, west, and southbound traffic. It is the needs of the people that should prevail over the needs of greedy companies that are looking for shortcuts wherever possible. This section of beautiful waterfront is one of those shortcuts. Let's return the waterfront to the people.

I also think that we should bring more subsidized housing to the waterfront. All people need access to the water, and I am afraid that it will be reserved solely for the rich who can afford the property or the drive to get there. If you visit the New York City area you will see the Long Island Sound dotted with huge estates that limit the public to a few unattractive morsels of beachfront. I have seen the same in South Carolina, Georgia, North Carolina, and Florida. We need to ensure that the waterfront is open and accessible to even the most unfortunate of residents. This is one reason that I believe we need to add mass transportation to the area, and make it free like it is along Main Street.

We can pay for this out of the profits of the greedy corporations like Exxon Mobil and Proctor&Gamble. It doesn't make sense for a select few to get richer while their fellow citizens suffer. It just isn't morally correct and my hope is that Buffalo can lead the fight on changing this injustice.

This is the exact reason why everything takes year upon years to finish in this city.That is if it finishes at all. There was a time and place for these people to voice opinions and ideas. People like this hinder the progress being made. It's ridiculous, all they want to do is hear them selfs talk. "Buffalo Niagara Riverkeeper" has never been heard of until yesterday, please go back to where you came from. I can't believe these people even got the press that they did. It back fired and makes them look like fools anyway.

This is the exact reason why everything takes year upon years to finish in this city.That is if it finishes at all. There was a time and place for these people to voice opinions and ideas. People like this hinder the progress being made. It's ridiculous, all they want to do is hear them selfs talk. "Buffalo Niagara Riverkeeper" has never been heard of until yesterday, please go back to where you came from. I can't believe these people even got the press that they did. It back fired and makes them look like fools anyway.

Your server STINKS!

I agree with you Sambo but I also believe that the process is for the people and it is their right to intervene when they believe that a project, any project, is not in the best interest of the citizens.

This project is being pushed by a government entity without full consultation from the people, at least as far as the riverkeepers are concerned they have not had their say. I feel blessed to live in a country that honors the desires of the people.

Excerpt from Saturday's Buffalo News:

'...Riverkeeper’s plan calls for leveling the elevated roadway, creating an at-grade four-lane boulevard. The plan also calls for eliminating the low-speed parkway boulevard that, under the state’s plan, would run along the lake side of the highway. That would open 77 acres for development, said O’Neill, who added the state could sell those development rights and more than make up for the cost of changing the plan during construction.

“It’s been a long time to get us to this point,” Carrier said. "We feel the approach that is currently under way was the parkway that was envisioned by the community after a more than 10-year process." '

Whole article: http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/niagaracounty/story/410585.html

How is Riverkeeper's plan really better in the ways being claimed here if it eliminates the planned new low-speed parkway in favor of a one wide Niagara Falls Blvd style higher-speed heavy traffic at-greade street where all traffic must mix together (commercial, commuter, and those who would have chosen the low speed parkway)?

Heather, true there probably wouldn't be anywhere near as much retail (or other) development as has NFB.

I think the intended comparison isn't to the building density, but to the amount and speed of traffic. Why isn't NFB a good comparison for that? Don't a lot of cars travel between Buffalo and the southtowns? Maybe some other high traffic street would be a better comparison than NFB. Any suggestions?

PaulBuffalo - You are absolutely correct! Let's turn the waterfront into a low - to - middle income neighborhood and give the most deserving a chance at a prime view of the lake. A community park with public beach front would center the community in much the same way that beach ties together the ocean front communities all along the Eastern shoreline. We have to do this right if we ever stand a chance of reuniting Riverside and Blackrock with the waterfront. If we take it one step further and relocate the development of a new international crossing for commercial traffic, then we could effectively build the new Buffalo from the water inward towards the suburbs, instead of the other way around.

When were the public meetings held and how many were there? Were they publicized or was it just Harry and the unions meeting to decide how to spend the federal largess- getting the most pavement down as possible and work for the over-priced goon squad?

RonR, we need to preserve as much green space as possible to reverse Global Warming. We need to consolidate the cities and return the distant suburbs to farm land and forests. We need to stop letting cars and trucks run rampant over our highways and return the space to the people. Trucks move faster than people and definitely faster than houses. Why should we move houses and people to make way for trucks?

We need to look out our less fortunate citizens, it is the noblest pursuit. We need to address unregulated greed and profiteering in America and look towards more progressive social programs to bring stability to our economy. The less fortunate and greedy rich create instability of the economy, the haves are always taking from the have nots. We need to focus on uniformity of opportunity, stop the bloodthirsty competition between people that unchecked greed creates and begin to do more for the underprivileged. Opening the waterfront to the poor, in houses subsidized by the rich, should do well to further this process. The rich should be working for their fellow citizens instead of working for their stockpiling wealth and other greedy pursuits. I see no reason that we could not offer the waterfront to the less fortunate through some of the most progressive social programs available anywhere in America.

We should learn from our brother countries in Europe who take care of their citizens through progressive tax structures and uniform health care. We should take the necessary steps to bring wealth to all people no matter how unfortunate their circumstances. The less fortunate are in their predicament due to circumstances outside of their control, we all know this to be true, so it is our duty to help them pull out of these circumstances at whatever cost.

Returning the road to the people is a good step, furthering development for the less fortunate is another great step, as PaulBuffalo indicated in another post. I think that if we all band together we could make Buffalo a truly progressive city that is a model for others to follow.

I am sorry PaulBuffalo, I thought that you were a champion for the underprivileged, my mistake.

I believe that we should create a mixed-wealth community if we are going to create a community at all. The wealthy need to live near the underprivileged to ensure that they have empathy for those less fortunate. The only way to successfully make that happen is to subsidize housing and plan the community in a way that supports people from all socioeconomic strata.

I don't understand why you wouldn't want the less fortunate living near the waterfront?

I'm all for helping less fortunate individuals but "The only way to successfully make that happen is to subsidize housing and plan the community in a way that supports people from all socioeconomic strata." sounds pretty socialist to me but thats just my opinion. Help less privileged but don't loose a sense of work ethic doing it. People succeed through the belief that they are aiming for a purpose, In the case of housing, one should work hard and their goal may then be able to afford to live in a such an area as the "water front"

Paul, the east side is not ripe for anything. They demolish houses there and always pull out dead bodies. {deleted- off topic}

I really don't think international builders really give a sh!t about the east side of Buffalo.

How about we fix the core of the city first and worry about the outskirts later?

77 acres for $500,000 makes it a 64.935/acre, which is 40-50% less than the going rate, comps are available. Thank you Riverkeeper for having the courage to fight for a vision where people and family's are the centerpiece of a waterfront, not cars and trucks. Once the street design is complete and finished, the next focus should be where to put buildings for water-dependant programs. Once we have that, people can actually start planning for year around programming.

The DMZ would help Buffalo the most. As the underlying currents of disinvestment are already well into the first ring suburbs. An new reinvesment in central Buffalo would be buffered against any back flow. Kind of like rolling down the car window to get the bee out and then rolling it back up.

The issue is not a municipal one, its an individual one. The first ring burbs are now seeing the disinvestment as individuals cut thier profits/loses and build in the second ring now. There is no wall that will stop this cycle expect 500,000 people suddenly moving into Erie county.

Give Buffalo this land back to let it be able to fend for itself again. Or stop bitching that the city doesn't do anything for itself and don't allow any new builds in Erie county until demand for the county as a whole increases.

flyguy, I currently see more 'new' grafitti in Snyder (check out the mailbox at Saratoga and Washington... just one example) than Allentown (on this website I guess I need to clarify, to me, grafitti = bad). The migration you speak of is much further along than you think.

PaulBuffalo, do you live on the east side. How do you know the residents really want to save their neighborhoods?

Sometimes, I wonder if they really care or if it just flaming liberals like yourself that are not able to prioritize. The majority of residents on the east side chose to live the way they do. Have you ever wondered if they like living a certain way? You assume their neighborhoods are run down and they desire change, but how do you really know?

Isn't that your opinion? I have friends on the east side and they are very content with the way things are....

If you are so knowledgeable on the idea of an international design competition, why don't you become more proactive and set it up to assist the east side repair their neighborhoods.

There are too many people like yourself on this website that think they "know it all." you sit back and criticize, make unrealistic suggestions, and never implement your ideas.

Paul, don't be an armchair Buffalonian. If you have so many bright ideas, get out there and put them to action.

you are right gaustad. Poor people want to be poor because they dont look for better jobs. Handicapped people choose to be handicapped by not doing anything to make their limbs work. Black people choose to be black by not getting chemical peals. I understand what you are trying to say, but to say that people always choose to live the way they do is about as stupid as the analogies i just made.

PaulBuffalo - If you are concerned about Buffalo's tax base, then why not return and purchase property in Buffalo. It is really easy to tell us all about what needs to be done from your apartment in LALA land, but in reality you are contributing to the problem. I am glad that you are still passionate about the City of Buffalo, our residents, and your friends and family, but you are not doing anything for the city at this point in time.

Don't get me wrong, I am a lot like you. I drive through various parts of the EastSide and hope that things will improve, but I know that I would never invest in a house or building along Broadway because it is a losing investment. There are many opportunities to improve the streets and neighborhoods, and I see the beauty in what once was, but in the end I know that this area of Buffalo will remain a slum until the houses are torn down and the buildings decay due to neglect. I like to offer my viewpoints and form opinions on what should or could be done, but I know that I am not going to do anything for these neighborhoods. It is great to hope that someone else is able to see the opportunity and invest their money, but I know that it probably won't be me. I wouldn't wish for my worst enemy to have to live in some of these neighborhoods, and I pray for the children who have to grow up in these conditions.

People don't choose to be poor, or handicapped, or anything else, but many of these people have ample opportunity to improve themselves, their economic status, or at least to clean up the streets that they live on. Visit the houses with garbage strewn throughout the backyards, basements, and living spaces; see the deplorable conditions that people put themselves in, and you will see that some people choose their living conditions. It isn't up for me to try to better their living conditions, if they are renting a house or duplex then they can move to a better part of the city (like Black Rock or University Heights). If they own the house, then they have a vested stake in the condition of the community and they can join one of hundreds of community groups willing to make the conditions better. Even with all of this, the Eastside is still a slum ghetto that is all too often the only impression that people have of the city. If you are a suburbanite and your impression of the city comes from the news, then chances are you have a pretty hardset perception of Jefferson Ave, Woodlawn, East Ferry, Box, Bailey, Olympic, and Goodyear Avenues. This is what many people feel is the city, and this is why many people stay as far away as possible. Some even move to LA. :-)

Allfit - Amen - good post!

Bini - although I often agree with your remarks, I find that amrchair Buffalonians really are not in touch with what is really going here. They are too bold in their remarks. Although I used to live in California for an extended period of time, I do not jump on their local websites and tell them how to make improvements, nor do I have time.

I post here because I am passionate about the city and I want to stay here. However, sometimes the outlook is so dreary that many young working professionals give up and leave, including myself.

PaulB - simply put, you are too argumentative for a guy that lives 3000 miles away. You really have no basis to make any kind of suggestions, because you just don't know how it really is in Buffalo day to day. Moreover, I feel you have way too much time on your hands in LA to post so often. If you are that concerned, why don't you just move home and make a difference as opposed to arguing with people that are in the trenches, fighting the fight every dam day!

Kooks, if the majority of homes on the east side are run down with debris in the yards, I can only assume that the majority have no interest in improving their neighborhoods and chose to live this way. There is no need to play the race card again, and tell me that black people have no choice, but to be black and therefore they can not help themselves. They can help themselves and they can move to the suburbs or somewhere else. I have seen many successful black families that are wealthy, motivated, and a fine addition to any neighborhood. How did they do it?

haha i wasnt playing the race card by anymeans...i was just being a smart a*s

PaulB - you are too funny. I could care less if you post on BRO.

As always, you missed the point so I will spell it out for you:

Your comments are too bold and too argumentative for a guy that lives 3000 miles away.

I don't tell you how to live your life in LA, so don't tell me how to live my life in Buffalo.

gaustad- Your comments are transparently racist. I think you would be much happier in the suburbs, maybe heathersmiles could help you find a place.

Blackrocklifer - (deleted) - what is it specifically I said that makes me a racist. I just don't see it. Please tell me.

{deleted- off topic}

{deleted- off topic}

thank you

{deleted- off topic}

gaustad- Black Panther? I'm a "white guy" and I grew up in Black Rock/ Riverside in the 60's during the days of integration and white flight. As for your comments, I don't know if you are racist, but you seem to speak the language.

We know the current highway is a deterrent to developing the waterfront. We have 50 years of evidence. Rebuilding it would be breathtakingly stupid.

For the record, Niagara Falls Boulevard is NOT a true boulevard. The Octavia Boulevard in San Francisco, which replaced the DOUBLE DECKER Central Freeway, is a true boulevard. See the links below:

http://www.ci.sf.ca.us/site/sfdpw_page.asp?id=32258 http://www.hayesvalleysf.org/html/archives/2005/2005_05-06/images/oct_blvd_trees_web.jpg

PaulBuffalo - You missed the point with your comment: "I don't live in Buffalo for a number of reasons, but to suggest that my comments on a website add to Buffalo's problems is silly.

Your contribution to the problem is that you fled the city. I don't blame you for leaving, or even care what your reasons are. I do find it peculiar that you talk about the need for Buffalo to increase tax revenues through high end properties while you took your tax contributions and took up residence in another state. Decreasing revenue for the city is one of the biggest problems that will get worse as residents will be expected to pay out more to make up the State deficit and may be expected to pay out more for Federal health care mandates (a program that I support).

I wonder if Buffalo is going to survive past the control board, with more people moving out than moving in. This is the problem that you are contributing to, I could care less if you post on BRO or any other website regardless of where you live.

{deleted- thought provoking}

allfit - Maybe Paul and others are doing Buffalo a favor by taking their tax revenue. A lot of it would be wasted here anyhow as things stand, so so aren't they helping NY state face the need to be more efficient?

And if Paul was still living in Buffalo wouldn't he be taking a job that some current Buffalonian needs? As BuffaloBloviator pointed out a few times on BR, it's good for Buffalo's population to right-size to match the size of its private sector economy. Paul and other expats are doing the thankless job of making that happen. Bloviator, help me out here -- you can explain it better than I can. Something about GDP.

Atwater, good to see you again.

PaulB and others who left are a detriment to Buffalo. not because we lost their tax base, but because they cloud the judgment of others on this site while they sit in others cities and preach to us how to manage the city.

PaulLA,

no you can not, but I do highly recommend you experience life in LA. it truly is an amazing city. Can't you find a girlfriend out there to keep you busy?