Buffalo Rising Online

It is still cheaper, in some respects, to ride the subway Downtown than to park.

I dont care how poor and broke Buffalo and Erie County are...the light rail should be supported and expanded, particularly to the airport and UB and Niagara Falls.

There are wonderful developments happening along Main Street and those developments are going to increase as time goes on....but connecting UBs campus to downtown and connecting the Airport, Galleria, Central Terminal to downtown are critical to allowing downtown to compete with the suburbs.

What I never understood was the "Trust System" the NFTA had with the underground system. Heck, even I'm guilty of not buying a ticket or getting off at Allen Station instead of Theatre (I know, gasp). So why not invest in turnstyles or have someone at every subway entrance collecting fare or tickets before entering the main platforms? This could save the NFTA a load of money from all of us who have taken advantage of thier "Trust System".

Dangelo you are so right. If the NFTA wants to close some budget gaps then they need to wake up and put in turnstiles. Especially with sabres games, the square, and just every day travel tons of people "hop the rail" (well, if there was a rail to hop, i think i would happen less frequently and add the the NFTA's pocketbook)

It's something to consider. The free fare is a wonderful luxury, but it is arguably a subsidy to the well-off. Downtown workers have wages considerably higher, typically, than those who pay fares and embark from the Utica or Delevan branches.

The same may be said of free fares for students of UB and Canisius. My understanding is these schools chip in some fixed yearly amount to underwrite the service. Perhaps downtown landlords can chip in to keep the free fare service going. Right now they're getting a free lunch, and there's no such thing as a free lunch - somebody pays.

Increasing revenue to the NFTA is a fine idea if it means expanded service. Raising fares may keep only the status quo today, but when the state budget is back in order as the economy reboots and more folks are using transit in the years upcoming, it could provide the financial cushion to begin doing really progressive things with the NFTA's surface transportation network.

hmm.. free, not free, free, not free. Chris, UB does not have a deal with the NFTA to date. I wish they would. The number of students and exposure to the local economy by allowing them access to downtown would be tremendous. But alas they do not, which is why you barely see any UB students taking the system.

The small amount of money that the other schools pay to the NFTA is based on the number of students. Maybe 50 bucks a semester \ student. I don't really know the numbers but in any event it is money and users into the system. It also provides something that every other developed country offers its citizens. Students should have access to public transit.

I do agree that they NFTA needs to work with the private sector to say, if you use and enjoy our service. Then you should pay up something. There are many retailers and businesses that rely on public transit to get their workers to work but don't directly pay anything to support the system.

Maybe they should put to work all those cops that they hire to check tickets more often... I really have no idea WHY the NFTA even has a police force. They should do what all other systems do, rely on the municipalities, which already have police forces. Even if they paid 50% of what they pay now to the local muni's to assure some level of service it seems like a win win. Right now I take the system every day, train, multiple routes and I have no clue what they do. I never see them but yet they bleed many thousands or millions of dollars from the system.

Focus on Transit.. Not waterfront development, police forces, fleets of SUV's and this other crap they waste their money on.

If they expanded to the north farther and to cover more of the city, i would be more than happy for them to charge for all routes, but to not bring anything more to the table and raise the fare..hmm, time to trim the fat from within, and use some sensible creative ideas, as opposed to the same old, lazy, pass the buck and raise cost method.

Amen on flyguy!! Specifically that we need to 'finish' the current line.

I thought they already sold the Outer Harbor? And why don't they just collect the fairs undergound instead of being so "trusting"???? I hardly ever see anyone checking for tickets, so why wouldn't people ride the entire rail for FREE? if noone is checking, what's the point in buying a ticket.

al-alo, even so. Whatever they are, they don't seem to justify the cost associated with having them. I don't know off hand but I doubt that other similar sized systems have a police force. Also they carry guns, that in my mind is a police officer and probably therefore have to do similar training.

They should definitely use whoever or whatever to check for tickets more often. It is pretty much guaranteed that whenever you check tickets, someone on the train doesn't have one. I have watched hundred of people get busted over the years, also I have watched even more get on, and keep a look out for ticket checkers and run off real quick if they see one. It is often painfully obvious.

I had the same question as sbrof and al-alo. I've twice heard Stamm cite the presence of the NFTA Police as one of the reasons why Buffalo's situation is different from Rochester's (where they just cut the fare). But he just leaves it at that, never asking why they need to have a separate force. I can actually believe that they need a dedicated force for the Airport, but I was living in NYC at the time they eliminated the Transit Police and merged them with the NYPD. My sense is that it was a smooth transition and that everyone sees it as a success. So why not consider it here? Keep a much smaller force at the Airport and let the local municipalities or the Sheriffs patrol the bus routes and Rail. Some of the NFTA officers could be incorporated into the local forces, but the duplicative upper management with their salaries, pensions, take home cars, etc. could be dropped.

I also agree that they need more ticket checkers. There should be one on every train, moving from car to car at stations. Think of it as like a bus in London (if they still do it that way) where you get on without a ticket and someone comes around the either sell you one or verify you have a pass.

On a slightly related note: You can now use Google maps to find find NFTA routes and schedules. I used this the other day to look up a route for a co-worker and it it was extremely user-friend.

They need the NFTA police because that is where the patronage hiring is. The entire NFTA is organized to provide patronage positions for the political parties. Ask how you can get on the board of the NFTA. This organization wasn't created to serve the public, it was organized as a hiring outlet for our elected leaders.

One of the most popular attractions visitor's seem to enjoy while in Buffalo is the Free Fare Zone. I myself enjoy it especially on those very hot or very cold or rainy days to take the train from the Theatre District to Church St. If they do decide to charge in this zone, will they actually have ticket agents checking people this time? or is it still going to be a "Trust" thing which still means 'FREE RIDE" unless you notice an agent coming onboard????

What they need to do is FIRE all the RUDE A** Customer Service Care they have answering the phones. Every Time I ever called it, they either NEVER Answer or if they do, they are the rudest people ever to speak with. The reason for calling is always because a bus NEVER Arrived, Passes Right By My Stop with me waiving like a mad man, or shows up too early and I don't make it. .....Oh and as for the schedual's why not STOP Printing and waisting money every season for updated scheduals they NEVER FOLLOW to begin with??????

The NFTA is one more unchecked authority that we pay for. They are incapable of operating the metro within budget, even in a year with record breaking ridership. They are poor stewards of the waterfront and every other property that they are supposed to operate. The Airports are a joke, when compared with most other cities of comparable size and air traffic. In other words, they just suck!

The NFTA hasn't expanded the metro to Amherst, or the Airport, or UB, or to any other place in Buffalo because they are incompetent and incapable. You can blame the suburbs, but the NFTA hasn't even attempted to push the agenda of expansion in recent memory, and by that I mean producing a viable plan, lobbying for funding, gaining public approval, etc. None of this has happened in years. The only progress made relating to Mass Transit has come from non-profit groups like the CRTC.

Why should we continue to pay the NFTA Executives salaries and bonuses for doing nothing? Why should we fund an impotent and redundant police force? Check out the NFTA cop sleeping at the Lasalle station every afternoon, right there in his car by the entrance. I've seen a different cop sleeping in his car near the UB metro as well. There are always at least one or two cars near the Utica station, what are they going to do for the subway riders by sitting in their cars?

Seriously, the NFTA sucks. Raise the fares if you think it will help, my guess is it will just increase car traffic downtown.

has there ever been a picture with actual PEOPLE on Main St? Other than the 6 thursdays a year for the square Main st is an embarrasment

Assaroni, the answer is NO, I don't think this site likes showing downtown pics with PEOPLE in them unless it's for an event (or at least that's the impression I've been under since this site started).

Good points, Biniszkiewicz.

I still think it's fair to consider a special assessment on downtown property owners to help underwrite the cost of the free fare zone.

damn thing should be free the whole route, short ride that goes nowhere

Assaroni, you're right. In our infinite wisdom to be a progressive, get it done city, we demolished most of downtown. What is left is a 9-5 shell of what it should be. Remember people only go places where there are things to do there. Offices and parking lots are all that is left and those don't draw a large crowd.

al-alo, yeah they have the ticket checkers and I fully agree that they should be increased. The police force is separate from them but sometimes they occasionally check tickets. But anyone that takes the system for a while knows when they are checking tickets before they even get in to the train.

Vivian - those cars were sold, I think somewhere around 2003. They were too wide for the current platforms. I think they have since been scrapped. Its too bad.

The government is broke and breaking people with all their subsidies and bailouts. Stop all subsidies and raise the metrorail ride to the true cost around $8.50 (approx.). If that NFTA can't make a go of it without subsidies sell it to a private interest and open up competition. I am fed up with people complaining about the proposed fare increase. It is only $0,50. That pales in comparison to Paterson's proposed welfare increase of 30%. The free zone only makes the NFTA more economically inefficient.

if we ended all subsidies on everything.. the market would collapse. The idea that an invisible hand works and creates a stable and wealthy populous is lie. Everything is regulated and subsidized, and I agree sometimes too much, but to think that our quality of could be sustained without it is misguided.

Highways are subsidized, sewer systems are subsidized, electrical grids and power generation are all subsidized, the mortgage and home ownership market is subsidized. how would life be without any of those? Because none of them happened via the market. They all happened because of federal policy.

Sbrof - The economic collapse that we are experiencing now is also a result of regulation and external infuence from the government. There is a difference between paying for universal services like sewers, police, fire, military, etc; and the subsidized and socialized world that we have created today. Too much intervention postpones the inevitable corrections in the market and exacerbates the impact when it finally does hit.

Light rail alone loses $20 million per year which exceeds the NFTA's $14 million deficit they say they need to raise prices to overcome. Whether it's a separate police force or paying another force to do it, light rail adds a lot of security costs which cities like Rochester smart enough to have bus-only systems don't have to pay for.

Just yesterday:

'Six charged in two gang-initiation attacks By Lou Michel 12/18/08 12:40 PM Transit police solved two gang-related assaults Wednesday night when they arrested six young men in one attack and discovered three of them may have been involved in an earlier assault of a Williamsville man inside a Metro Rail car near HSBC Arena. The officers described the attacks as part of a "gang entry exam." ...

During the encounter, the teenagers began punching him in the head and threatening that they had a gun as they attempted to steal Lewis' wallet from his pocket, the officers said. ...'

Those thugs probably would do crimes elsewhere yesterday if the Metro didn't exist. Still, all Metro cars and stations are relatively isolated venues that need expensive policing every single day.

Light and heavy rail systems lose money in pretty much every city in the United States. They're all subsidized by the government. They're not installed to make money, they're installed to serve the population. Just like any highway or roadway.

Its just like any road or highway that is built - they all lose money because, outside of places where there are tolls, they do not bring in revenue - however it takes constant dollars to police and maintain them. Even the NYS thruway, which charges people to use it, loses money when you compare its cost to operate and maintain to revenue. Is anyone calling for roads to be abolished for this reason or to stop expanding them? No, because they're installed for a public purpose. Light Railways are just another form of this.

Stop whinning about prices. Going to the inauguration? DC metro prices at peak hours $1.65 - $4.50. Six mile ride will cost $2.50.

vgs - what about the people who get on above ground and take the train underground?

You can't do turnstiles on this system, period. It has to be regulated with tickets and random checks. Buffalo isn't the only place that does this. There are even bus systems that use a similar "ticket" system where you buy your ticket anytime before you get on the bus and then when you get on, a machine will timestamp your ticket to validate it. The bus driver doesn't even check tickets. Its enforced through random checks.

The justification for this type of system is that the loss in revenue from people not buying tickets is made up for by the fact that you have less equipment to purchase, install and maintain (turnstiles, barriers, gates, etc...) and you don't have to have an employee at every station at all hours to ensure people aren't just jumping over the turnstiles.

Townline 17:18 is right that it pretty much has to lose some money. Question is bang for buck. For amount NFTA loses and fares charged, probably better service could hypothetically be provided by a bus-only system such as Rochester's or possibly by contracting a private co as some cites do. Those are moot questions at this point for Buffalo. Both the Metro and the NFTA as a fully govt-run operation are here for a very long time. There's not much accountability for fares and how much they lose, and service. Same as for many govt functions, as someone wrote earlier. Shrug, I guess.

al-alo - As I wrote before, those muggings-beatings probably would've happened somewhere yesterday even if the Metro didn't exist. My point was NFTA has more security needs than bus-only systems. Charger mentioned Rochester's lower fare. This explains some of that - no operating loss from light rail and no security costs for trains and stations. I don't know if there's other cites with a similar system as NFTA. If there are any, they probably aren't in NYS which throws off cost comparisons.

Instead of NFTA cops, if the sheriff's dept deputies patrol Metro trains and stations and watch the cameras, those costs would pass on. Also, there'd be endless blaming of sheriff for not enough patrols. Maybe it's a good idea anyway even if it'd save only a little money.

It would be good if more cost-effective bus routes had cheaper fare than the Metro. Service is better for speed, so why shouldn't train have .25 or .50 higher fare than bus? Probably only because it's not feasible politically. For everything about NFTA, status quo is pretty much how it has to be. As a govt agency they have patronage, high labor contract costs, not much pressure for efficiently, even less accountability. Some cities hire private co's to run public bus service at lower cost. That won't happen in Buffalo for many reasons, no need for that debate.

tom - About the physical and psychological, with all due respect to them, they should toughen up.

'... I fear that future students and workers at the up-and-coming Medical Campus will find the pay zone at Allen Station a physical, psychological, and monitary barrier to living, working, and staying downtown. ...'

MC students and workers should get with the program and not be intimidated by a pay zone ticket vending machine. Didn't Bill Clinton once say people in Buffalo aren't wimps? Maybe they should play the tape of him saying that over a speaker at the Allen Station every few minutes.

Re. monetary, they should get real. $1.75 each way isn't a huge amount. Those same people spend more than that for a beer or coffee where ever it is they're going. Better yet, they could buy a monthly pass and it'd be even less than $1.75 per ride. Why should everyone else pay their way fully? We already subsidize the Metro a lot, so they should thank the taxpayers for it being only $1.75

al-alo - But NFTA riders don't "bear this cost" fully, so you're asking if something's completely fair when it doesn't even happen. The question is how much portion they should bear, or put another way, how high should fares be, but nobody's saying fares should have to fund the whole budget. Well, MikeInWNY wrote they should, but I didn't go quite that far.

' is it completely fair for NFTA riders to bear this cost, when highway users dont have the same cost recovery burden?

tolls are on only a small portion of what we all use every day. snow removal, police, maintenance etc are covered by localities, not directly by the users'

Drivers pay a lot more than tolls. Highest in nation gasoline taxes (state and county), fees for licenses, registration, high sales taxes on tires, parts, service. Also, there's money from ever growing fines from parking and speeding tickets, now a new proposed tax on car insurance, on and on.