Buffalo Rising Online

not bad & better than before. but, seriously, that skyway has to go (has anyone actually tried sitting under that thing for more than 5 minutes?).

Are the canals functional or just pools of water?

... huge improvement. a plan with a vision. finally. just make those canals functional!!!

oh and work on the architecture a bit. no big barns.

Urban Planner, Steve Stipanovich ??? I guess if he calls himself a professional planner by just reading a few books I guess I'm an architect!

Skyway is ruining this

Yes Yes Yes! Now just do it. Development of the outer harbor, Bass Pro takes over the Aud, water extended to the Aud site, development of the outer harbor, development west of HSBC Arena, development of the outer harbor... add if some 5-10 story buildings or even bigger are put up i might just weep with joy

I wonder where Don Paul's weather museum will go? Can't wait to see that! (Now all of a sudden I'm confident that that's going to happen too!!) This is absolutely amazing looking. LOVE the fact that the canal is being expanded... love it love it love it.

Why is 40,000 homes too much? We have a couple thousand, if that, people living downtown. Most downtowns have 100 times that. I think 40,000 is just a start (a good one).

This is a fantastic expansion of the publicly supported plan, it extends water, it opens up more area for commercial, residential and green space. Almost to good to be true, like Monday's game huh? Lets just hope we don't botch this one in the last minute. I must say I am quite excited!!!! This creates a whole district, amazing and if built... we wont have to try to be Baltimore.. we will have trumped them by a long shot.

I wonder...how much salvage value is there to the Skyway? Take a gander at the amount of structural steel in it and how much $$$ could be raised by selling the structure for salvage. Prices being paid for metal salvage have gone through the roof (especially copper)... a few years ago it wasn't a factor but now it is. Of course, you would have to offset that by the labor involved in bringing it down, but let's do it now before the area gets built up.

Just a thought....

I hate to go off-topic, but...

JAS, what's with the personal attack? Do you know me personally, do you know my qualifications? I assume you don't since you would therefore know that I've done considerably more than read a few books to call myself an urban planner, such as get a degree in Urban Planning from Buff State as well as work for the past 3 years on various projects within the City of Buffalo as a Community Planner. I would be interested in knowing what qualifications you may have for judging a person's urban planning ability? Are you just an armchair planner, or did you get a degree in planning and work on planning projects in a professional environment?

Ok, now back to the topic at hand...

BUILD THIS NOWWWWWWWWWW ! I know we gotta wait for the aud to be demolished and all the environmental stuff to be cleared but this is truly an excellent design. I love the canals coming inland. To me it appears that you can take your boat right up to bass pro through the canals, buy some stuff and go right out into the lake on your boat

I like those canals. I hope they are functional and open to small boat and kayak traffic. Pools of standing water wouldn't be so great.

1. If that bridge extends to the outer harbor wouldn't it have to be a lift bridge to let grain tankers in (ie, the reason we have the skyway in the first place)? In the model it certainly doesn't look tall enough for this function. If it is flat across at grade with Main St. doesn't it make the Skyway unnecessary and the General Mills elevator inaccessable?

2. What's with the suburban community out there on the outer habor? Think bigger out there. Don't just throw up crap, wait until the market can sustain some bigger more exciting projects with impressive waterfront architecture and a new signature park for public access. I, for one, certainly don't want the entire outer harbor to look like a gated community.

This is a great surprise. I agree, the Skyway has to go. Also, it's great to see that the water is being pulled into the city. A great city to model is Chicago. Chicago cleaned up the Chicago River which runs through the city and now it's a huge asset. Real estate along the river is booming. It's fantastic to take a cruise along the river throughout the city. Buffalo should pull the canals even further inland. It would give the city a European feel.

Bass Pro I - No Deal Bass Pro II - Public Outcry and No Deal Bass Pro III - At least $200 million in corporate welfare over the course of the deal, the public is fooled by the politicians and taxes keep increasing.

Not surprising, everyone loves the $126 million needless Federal Court being built.

Your principle has placed these words above the entrance of the legislative chamber: “whosoever acquires any influence here can obtain his share of legal plunder.” And what has been the result? All classes have flung themselves upon the doors of the chamber crying: “A share of the plunder for me, for me!”

— Frédéric Bastiat

The debate over taking the skyway down or not will slow this project down for years, wait and see. Many more plans to come. Someone is getting rich on plans and drawings.

UGH! This is atrocious. The canals need to be re-watered and connected to Buffalo River and the rest of the canals that are buried under the welfare projects and Thruway. The Skyway should be torn down and replaced with mass transit. What is with the signs on the side of the building, residents of the new neighborhoods will be forced to look at that from their yards. Bass Pro should reduce the size of the signs and pay to connect the store to light rail, they should re-water the canals and connect them to the DL&W terminal. They could open up authentic canal rides or use the area adjacent to the museum as a dock for Great Lakes cruise ships. They should incorporate the historic facade from the Aud into their design, like Health Now did with the Gas Works, only make it work this time. Bass Pro should dedicate a portion of the revenue to urban renewal and waterfront preservation, THIS SHOULD BE MANDATED AS PART OF THE BUILDING PLAN. MAYOR BROWN AND GOVERNER SPITZERSTEIN ARE RAPING THE TAX PAYERS TO BENEFIT A BIG BOX RETAILER. Bass Pro should have to open and subsidize a portion of their building for local businesses. This is the least that they could do to be fair.

Blymi = Chris69. Some disguise!

The canal extensions are phenomenal, and they formalize the project to an even greater extent, touchdown cobblestone! It’s difficult to get excited for retail with the skyway crashing through, and we can all agree about this! So I feel its necessary to consider the proposed location of bass pro as problematic.

I get the impression that this is going to be a successful experience for anyone. Looking at the fisher price farmhouse, one design element struck me as complimentative, and that’s the way the two buildings are split with the pitched roof (it reminds me of the skyway). Here is the best situation for bass pro and canal side. They use the proposed bass pro site as a plaza in hopes of having enough interest for some kind of tower.(bottom canal lvl retail) I don’t get enough vibrancy between that crucial axis and bass pro as a plan.

Then they use the interior canal block around where the skyway divides the small canal, as an over arching gate store. If the skyway were to be torn down you would be replacing that axis with a canal running through a store (of course exterior walls and sidewalk). The bottom left could have fishing boats and the bottom right cash registers. Everything would be built up towards the welcoming arch that would build bass pro’s sq feet space. A few extra floors above, having the bottom serve as a connection between both half’s. They could have their restaurant above the canal and provide multiple views (glass floor sections in some locations). The ability to encapsulate and expand the street presence is where bass pro should be looking to invest. This set of corners could provide a lot of shape to really enhance the linear quality of street and canal.

Difficult to explain without sketching it out.

Where is everyone going to park?? ...just kidding! Homes on the outer harbor? Interesting. I guess you'll really need to love Buffalo winters to want to live out there!

Too bad it has to be olde timey pretend historic

I know what you mean, Steel, but at least they're moving away from the Great White Hunter's Lodge design so reflective of Great White Hunter's image of the size of his phallus. Done well, these industrial shed forms could be very nice-- but they should be simplified and not pretend to be a re-use of long-gone industrial buildings.

Kudos to Buffalo Rising and other public forums for keeping the debate alive-- and, one hopes, for influencing the powers that be.

That proposed rotary on the outer harbor relates to nothing and contributes nothing.

Anyway, bravo to all the people who give so much thought to where their city is and should be going.

Why has the goal of the recreation of our historic 19th century urban lakefront been replaced with 1 storey suburban crap surrounded by grass?

As Buffalonians we must ask ourselves 10 years ago was anyone clamoring for a large sporting goods store in the heart of downtown...one that deals in firearms no less?!

Nah....we'll just swallow any grandiose plans put in front of us.

Too bad Buffalo Rising wasn't around seven years ago because I'm sure many would be posting on what a great deal Adelphia was giving the city.

More useless corporate welfare.

HOW MANY PRETTY REDERINGS MUST TAX PAYERS PAY FOR IN THIS CITY.

If you notice, thats all we do in this city; annoucne a project and spend 500k to create 5 different renderings.

There is not perfect way to build this....JUST DO IT!

PS - this bass pro does not look like a "turn of the century building" It looks more like a farm house

I think this is a great concept in general, very much along the same lines as the plan posted here a few weeks ago. However, in looking at this model in greater detail, there are a few things that concern me, as to whether this is a serious attempt at creating a plan for the harbor or its just propaganda to attract a Bass Pro and get people excited about it.

First - the skyway pier that comes down directly next (south) to the commercial slip is at a completely incorrect angle. It looks like they actually turned it and made it skinnier just to make their model work. You couldn't do that with the real pier. The actual pier would come down directly into and across the water of the commercial slip, making it unrealistic to extend the canal.

Secondly - they have cars traveling on those tiny strips of land surrounding the Erie canal, directly in front of the Bass Pro Building. First, those lanes don't look nearly wide enough for auto traffic. Secondly, what the hell purpose does that serve with scott street nearby. How in the world would that work going into main street and the light rail. And whats with those enormous, wide pieces crossing the canal part in front of the Bass pro, especially the one at the end of the commercial slip - are they going to have autos going across this???? I'm concerned that Bass Pro stipulated automobile access on all sides of their building, so this was just thrown in there for the front.

Third - The model has cars on the outside of the light rail trackbed (not sharing) on Main Street. This is inconsistent with the rest of the plan for main street which has the cars sharing. I'm told that the EIS for cars on main street is for the entire street, meaning that this project would screw that up. Not that it is that big of a deal, I'm sure they can put the cars sharing the track, but it shows that the designers have clearly not done their homework on the area.

Forth - That silly piece of the canal East of Main St. is WAY too narrow if they are going to have it functional, you would not be able to turn around most watercraft it exit once they got in there.

Fifth - Prime Slip - they show a boat in there, however, I don't think you could fit another boat passing in the opposite direction. Also, they definitly didn't reference any historic maps or anything, because prime slip has a bend at the end of it. Again, this is a lack of homework from the designer.

Sixth - Whats with the giant surface parking lot on the historic site, directly across from HSBC arena? Did they run out of ideas?

Seventh - Why did they not reference ANY of the previousl plan or completed work, and just put greenspace in those areas. Did they think about how the projects would connect AT ALL? This plan should be an extension of the original, not put in place of it.

Eighth - are they aware that, at this point, putting a bridge across the General Mills land is pretty much unrealistic at this point, General Mills does not want their property touched, and that perhaps a much better option exists at Erie Street?

Ninth - I'm told that the architects aren't sure whether the canals will be operational or not, perhaps they will be just individual pools of water. How can you not know at this point? Why would you present the plan without figuring something that significant out - unless there were completely alternative motives for presenting the plan - such as Bass Pro. This really tells me that this is all about Bass Pro and not about developing the inner harbor.

Tenth - if the canals are functional, that will be an ENORMOUSLY expensive bridge for Main Street over the canal, considering its width and the light rail that travels over it. Also, the scott street bridge is ridiculously wide. It appears that they are intending to keep the full lanes and parking lanes over the bridge. This is just not normally done because it escalates the cost so significantly.

I'm not trying to bash the ideas presented here, I think its a great concept, and is exactly what should be done to develop the inner harbor. However, there are several major RED FLAGS that make it clear to me that the designer has not done their homework in developing this plan, which then makes me believe that there may be alternative motives in presenting this than developing the harbor. Some of these things are enormous oversights that the designer could not just make on accident. I hate to be cynical but it was obvious that the previousl central wharf bass pro idea was nothing more than a big box surrounded by parking - made pretty so as to dupe the public into getting excited over it. Lets make sure that this plan is not following the same path.

Steel-

Do you actually think that people are going to say "wait I can't shop there, those buildings aren't 150 years old! What was I thinking going to an area with faux historic buildings??!!" Who cares when they were built as long as they provide a boost. Stop nitpicking and lets finally build something.

"...or is at least working quickly to achieve that goal. ONCE THE ENVIRONMENTAL REVIEW PROCESS IS FINISHED, the development will move forward."

There is nothing I hate more than hearing those words in a press release about a proposed development. In this city, these things seem to be used as a legal loophole by a plan's opponents to stall the project and kill its momentum. I understand they are necessary in this day and age for sustainability concerns, but I just hope that this won't be a stumbling block like every other big project that requires an ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STUDY!!!!

I really hate to be this guy but... this plan is a shadow of the last one. Don't get me wrong, I love the canals- but the Buffalo River is not Buffalo's water front, development should go right up to the waters edge, this green space that preservations have fought for, even though the space is not historically green, will act as nothing more than another buffer to the outer harbor and Buffalo's true waterfront.

They hypocrisy of the preservationists on this matter has been appalling, we can not continue to allow a vocalized minority to dictate the course of our city's future, because it will continue to produce projects that will forever be the second best alternative.

The thing is, that isn't green space. For some reason, the architects just decided not to include what is actually being put there in their model.

Blymi...You forgot to ask for taller buildings. Where do you expect to find the funding to support your stupid ideas?

those were all excellent points townline. Hopefully as the plan is refined they will do more homework and get rid of the numerous goofy things the model shows... like what is that - rite aid on the central wharf?

Also why are they trying to mimic the old wooden grain elevators with the bass pro store in a location on the canal where none would have existed, rather 5 story commercial buildings. I say go modern with the store otherwise they are sending a confusing message. The grain elevators were located where large ships could dock from the lake, not back on the canals. maybe i'm being to picky. or maybe- were elevators on the canal? anyone?

but again, the site plan is heading in the right direction!!

Did anyone notice that the last photo appears to show a re-constructed D.L. & W passenger terminal?

flyguy - I just got this in my email and I thought you should check it out.

http://www.ikea-coupon.com/bonus.php?seed=IKEA&expansion=on%20Mars&final=IKEA%20on%20Mars&

Notice the word "expansion" in the URL. IKEA is really stretching its boundaries these days!

/excitable

I dont like what they are planning for the outer harbor....townhomes.....thats stupid!

I think now is the time to get rid of the skyway access ramp at Seneca and Pearl as well as the skyway extension above terrace to elmwood and delaware. Loose it!!!!

I didnt like that previous incarnations but this is a good enough iteration that I think everyone can say is a good investment for the taxpayer and the community.

Love that its located on the former Spaulding Market, love the additional extensions all the way to Washington Street....love the extension of the canal wharf district into downtown and the extension of the wharf district from Erie Street to Michigan Street, love the museum and the aquarium, etc.

For all those that are denouncing this plan because it is subsidized with government handouts, consider this: Our economy needs a catalyst to spur further development downtown. Free-market enterprises aren't lining up to build in our crumbling city. The Canal Side project is the type of "shot in the arm" aka "kick in the pants" the city needs to spur development. I'm not a fan of corporate welfare either, but sometimes government spending can jump start an economy. Look at the New Deal and the CCC following the Great Depression. Will this have a domino effect? Yes. More people will want to be downtown / live downtown because there will be more to do downtown. More businesses will follow. Think it will be easier for BNE to lure more businesses into the area once the downtown core has something to show other than vacant buildings and homeless people? You bet. While Bass Pro might not be everyone's idea tenant for Canal Side, it's a highly visible signal for other businesses.

harry: do you think removing the skyway will not be that easy because of the cost, or due to whatever law, ordinances, or regulations that have to be considered? personally, i think removing the skyway is doable and supported by literally everyone i know. the folks in the southtowns have a very fine (and expensive) alternative roadway in the 190 to get to downtown. even if removal of the skyway causes some inconvenience to those who commute, should the interests of commuters from hamburg or orchard park, who have a decent highway to take them into downtown, supercede the development of the waterfront?

I agree with Harry that the skyway is not the greatest imediment to outer harbor development. Rather, acess and pollution are... many people forget the industies that were located on the outer harbor were HEAVY polluters, I believe the NFTA has estimated a cost of 200 million to completely clean their parcel, thats a huge cost to anyone who wishes to develope.

Also, high rise is not an realistic option for the outter harbor, most of the land is fill.

land fill? why can't you build high rises on land fill? Battery Park City is all landfill, most of downtown boston, and many other places with tall buildings are built on landfill. And regarding the skyway, we have to build the replacement lift bridge first, then lose the skyway. So it is likely the skyway would be around for another 5 years. Then it most go! there will be no "pragmatic" reason to keep it.

nyc, In order to build high rises on fill you have to dig to bedrock- that expense it not prohibitive in NYC and Boston.

Do you know how deep the bedrock is? I'm not sure it would be that much different from building on the current Erie Basin Marina sites that will now have two highrises... but I actually don't think highrises are the way to go. It was interesting to see Uniland propose 5 highrises for the outer harbor. seemed a bit overblown and didn't make for much of a community out there.

and the best thing buffalo can do right now from an infrastructure stand point is fast track the outer harbor bridge, the removal of the skyway, and remaking erie street as a gateway from the heart of downtown to the outer harbor.. waiting for a poll to say its important will insure it never gets done.

If I recall correctly bedrock is 60-90ft down... I don't think the Marina sites are fill but I could be wrong, in which case i would assume a shallower bed rock.

Interesting that you mention the Uniland proposal though.. . if you remember there were several other proposals that were judged with it- while it may be sour grapes, many of the losing proposals mentioned the plans lack of feasibility because of the soil conditions.

Totally agree with you on the infrastructure, I am interested to see how the outer harbor plan develops from here.